Is it possible to approximate an equation with circulant and toeplitz matrices?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the approximation of an equation involving circulant and Toeplitz matrices, specifically examining the validity of approximating the norm of a product of matrices with the product of their norms. The context includes theoretical and mathematical reasoning related to matrix properties and norms.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents an equation involving circulant and Toeplitz matrices and questions the justification for approximating it with a simpler expression involving the norms of the matrices.
  • Another participant suggests evaluating the approximation using the Schwarz inequality, indicating that the validity may depend on specific system characteristics and the quantities involved.
  • A later reply notes the use of the Frobenius norm for the approximation and acknowledges an oversight regarding a factor of 1/N in the approximation.
  • There is a query about the existence of an identity related to the Frobenius norm of the product of matrices, but no definitive answer is provided.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the general applicability of the approximation and whether specific identities or inequalities can support it. There is no consensus on the validity of the claims made in the original paper.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the dependence on the specific matrix norm used and the potential limitations in the assumptions made regarding the matrices involved.

EngWiPy
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Hi all,

I am reading a paper which contains a lot of matrices. Anyway, there is this equation:

[tex]\|\mathbf{H}_3\mathbf{H}_1\mathbf{e}\|^2=\mathbf{e}^{H}\mathbf{H}_1^{H}\mathbf{H}_3^{H}\mathbf{H}_3\mathbf{H}_1\mathbf{e}[/tex]

where superscript H means conjugate transpose, and boldface Hs are N-by-N circulant and toeplitz matrices, where the first column is defined as:

[tex]\begin{array}{ccccccc}h_i(0)&h_i(1)&\cdots &h_i(L)&\mathbf{0}_{1\times N-L-1}\end{array}[/tex]

and e is some N-by-1 vector. It is claimed that the above equation can be approximated as:

[tex]\|\mathbf{H}_3\|^2\|\mathbf{H}_1\mathbf{e}\|^2[/tex]

but the authors did not say how and why? They just claimed that in simulation the mean square error between both of them is tolerable and small. Further it is said that:

[tex]\|\mathbf{H}_3\|^2=N\sum_{m=0}^L|h_3(m)|^2[/tex]

are all of that justifiable? and how?

Thanks in advance
 
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Evaluate the first claim in terms of the Schwarz inequality
[tex]||AB||\leq||A||\cdot ||B||[/tex]
The claim that equality is a good approximation must be specific to this system and the actual quantities involved. (This is further suggested by your quote that they found it to be true in simulation.) I don't see why it would follow generally from properties of circulant matrices.

You don't state the particular matrix norm used in the 2nd claim. If it is the Frobenius norm
[tex]||A||_F^2=\sum_{i,j}|a_{i,j}|^2[/tex]
then your equation follows immediately since all components of a Toeplitz matrix are found in the first column, repeated N times.
 
I forgot to include a factor of 1/N in the approximation, and yes, the norm is Frobenius.
 
Is there any identity such that:

[tex]\|\mathbf{A}\mathbf{B}\|^2_F\geq x[/tex]
 
I'm not aware of one, but someone more knowledgeable in math might know.
 
marcusl said:
I'm not aware of one, but someone more knowledgeable in math might know.

Ok, thanks anyway.
 

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