Is Kate Moss's View on Thinness Controversial? Share Your Opinion!

[xxChrisxx]

It doesn't matter if it's fact. It is the message she is sending.

She's NOT sending that message though. What she said, and what the headlines then say she said are two different things.

WWD: Do you have a motto?
KM: There are loads. There’s “Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels.” That’s one of them. You try and remember, but it never works.

is NOT the same as

http://omg.yahoo.com/news/kate-moss-blasted-for-saying-being-skinny-is-better-than-eating/31526

Kate Moss Blasted for Saying Being Skinny Is Better Than Eating

or

http://www.care2.com/causes/womens-rights/blog/kate-moss-says-skinny-is-better-than-healthy/

Kate Moss Says Skinny Is Better Than Healthy

or

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1229305/Kate-Moss-criticised-skinny-best-motto.html

Kate Moss was criticised yesterday for failing to issue a proper apology after boasting that it was better to be skinny than to eat.

Dave you love pointing out logical fallacies and crap like that. This is a really effective use of a quotemine.
The first part of the stamtent can be read as pro enorexic, the very next thing she says puts it into a context that doesn't mean what the papers are saying.

It's the same sentiment as my motto

"don't eat pies Chris, you'll become a fatty"

 

[Monique]

Has it ever been studied whether people become anorexic because of a role model that is thin? As far as I know (I recently watched a documentary that followed anorexic women), it is more about having control than losing weight. I strongly received the impression that it is very comparable to an obsessive compulsive disorder. Of course the process of going on a diet can trigger anorexia, but it is not a direct cause.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Has it ever been studied whether people become anorexic because of a role model that is thin? As far as I know (I recently watched a documentary that followed anorexic women), it is more about having control than losing weight. I strongly received the impression that it is very comparable to an obsessive compulsive disorder. Of course the process of going on a diet can trigger anorexia, but it is not a direct cause.

I remember seeing sometihng like this on channel 4. (In the UK). It was quite a while ago though.

 

[DanP]

Kate Moss was criticised yesterday for failing to issue a proper apology after boasting that it was better to be skinny than to eat.

This is a particularly funny one. I guess I should also go and apologize to all the fat ones who I managed to motivate to take a better approach to nutrition and fitness.

" 'Hey man , sorry I motivated you to lose the mountains of fat you had. Sorry I told you to refrain of eating the mountains of CHO and fats you do. You know what, you where better fat, depressed and risking diabetes"

 

[DaveC426913]

What is the message ? That ppl should eat less ? Look around on the streets, armies of fat slobs, both man and women, should stop eating the mountains of food they ingest.

Have you been out to lunch for the last dozen posts?

Whose ear do you think she has? Do you think all those regular people you're seeing on the street - including overweight girls and boys and adults - are listening to Kate Moss on how to be a supermodel? No. Normal young girls who do not need to lose weight are starving themselves sick to model themselves after her and other unhealthily skinny stereotypes.

 

[DanP]

Have you been out to lunch for the last dozen posts?

Whose ear do you think she has? Do you think all those regular people you're seeing on the street - including overweight girls and boys and adults - are listening to Kate Moss on how to be a supermodel? No. Normal young girls who do not need to lose weight are starving themselves sick to model themselves after her and other unhealthily skinny stereotypes.

Come again ?

What is the message, I asked. Not what is the interpretation by different categories.

 

[DaveC426913]

This is a particularly funny one. I guess I should also go and apologize to all the fat ones who I managed to motivate to take a better approach to nutrition and fitness.

Like I said: who's ear do you think Kate Moss has? Do you think it's all the overweight adults that are hearing her message?

 

[cristo]

I would say "using a motto which can be interpreted as pro-anorexia", for I agree with Chris's interpretation.

Regardless of the way one interprets the motto, it is a fact that this motto is used by pro-anorexica media out there, thus it is irresponsible for her (a role model to young girls who, let's face it, must have seen the effects of anorexia through her job) to be using such a phrase in an interview.

 

[DaveC426913]

Come again ?

What is the message, I asked.

You then went to propose an answer that implicitly contained the message:

Look around on the streets, armies of fat slobs, both man and women, should stop eating the mountains of food they ingest.

to wit: "Hey all you fat slobs: stop eating the mountains of food you ingest."



So to be clear: Kate Moss does not have the ear of fat adult, male slobs. She has the ear of young women who see themselves either like her or who want to be like her.

 

[DanP]

Like I said: who's ear do you think Kate Moss has? Do you think overweight adults are hearing her message?

Maybe they should. What about if the press , instead of redirect with the purpose of bashing KM, would redirect what she said to be used as a campaign over the increasing obesity in western world ? To make the fat man and women who walks the streets actually gain some self respect and loose the excess , and in process gain a life ?

 

[xxChrisxx]

Have you been out to lunch for the last dozen posts?

Whose ear do you think she has? Do you think all those regular people you're seeing on the street - including overweight girls and boys and adults - are listening to Kate Moss on how to be a supermodel? No. Normal young girls who do not need to lose weight are starving themselves sick to model themselves after her and other unhealthily skinny stereotypes.

You keep setting them up and i'll keep knocking them down, because these arguments are frankly dreadful.

Kate Moss is skinny, she is a model. She is NOT anorexic, she does NOT endorse anorexia. She is not responsible for other poeples actions. Her weight and size are natural for her.

Tell me something. how is the above statement any different then:
"Violent video games cause children to murder people"
"Beatles should be blamed for Manson murders"You cannot blame someone for other peoples actions. This is NOT her fault. It's that fault of our entire sociecty. Especially in America where the media and people are obsessed with celebity and looks. Frankly... we should ban airbrushing and the shopping of photos in magazines, that would do more to convince pople that these celebrites aren't perfect.

For example my missus reads Heat magazine. A magazine that bashes people for becoming skinny, then bashes poeple for putting on weight. It's this kind of thing that breeds a society where no one is comfortable with their bodies.

 

[DanP]

to wit: "Hey all you fat slobs: stop eating the mountains of food you ingest."

Sorry, I know that not being a native English speaker does not constitutes an excuse, I will try to do better next time when I build propositions. Thanks for catching it.

 

[cristo]

This is a particularly funny one. I guess I should also go and apologize to all the fat ones who I managed to motivate to take a better approach to nutrition and fitness.

" 'Hey man , sorry I motivated you to lose the mountains of fat you had. Sorry I told you to refrain of eating the mountains of CHO and fats you do. You know what, you where better fat, depressed and risking diabetes"

The fundamental difference being that you were talking to (presumably) adults who were unhealthy, and lost the weight to become healthy. The motto mentioned by Kate Moss is not going to be listened to by the unhealthy overweight people, but will be listened to by either normal, healthy girls, or unhealthily underweight girls to make them lose more weight.

How can you draw such analogies? Have you never seen the effects of negative role models on young people growing up?

 

[DanP]

How can you draw such analogies? Have you never seen the effects of negative role models on young people growing up?

You see, this is a shift of responsibility. It is the role of parents and educators to model the young ppl growing up in such a way that they take on "positive role models". Not KM's role to shut up. Perhaps the role of the society in general to model the media in such a way that the glamor life on Hollywood actresses and supermodels is not glorified, but equilibrating presented. The role of the society to tell the fashion industry to stop firing models who got to size 5. To stop buying the clothes from designers , if they want to make a statement.

But they dont. They consume the media, consume the designer cloths, support the industry in as many way as possible. Then they blame it on KM :P She is not responsible for the psychosis caused by today's social system, media, and business world.

 

[DaveC426913]

She is not responsible for other poeples actions.

She is a celebrity and a role model. It's a package deal.

Her weight and size are natural for her.

Do you know this for a fact?

Tell me something. how is the above statement any different then:
"Violent video games cause children to murder people"
"Beatles should be blamed for Manson murders"

Better question: how are they the same?

You cannot blame someone for other peoples actions. This is NOT her fault.

Again: package deal.

It's that fault of our entire sociecty. Especially in America where the media and people are obsessed with celebity and looks. Frankly... we should ban airbrushing and the shopping of photos in magazines, that would do more to convince pople that these celebrites aren't perfect. For example my missus reads Heat magazine. A magazine that bashes people for becoming skinny, then bashes poeple for putting on weight. It's this kind of thing that breeds a society where no one is comfortable with their bodies.

Agreed on all points.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Do you know this for a fact?

She appears to have no health problems, her BMI is underweight, but not dangerously so. Se wears a size 4 US, which is a UK size 6. So we are not talking about someone who is stupidly skinny here, no one would consider a size 6 in the UK to be stupidly small.

Better question: how are they the same?

You are attributing the causes of triggering anorexia to one group of people. Basically saying... they are thin.. they are succesful... they are the problem. Not taking into account other factors that are more likely to have a causal link.

Yes people wish to emulate a celebrity's style and figure. Most do this by going to the gym and attempting to lose weight healthily. Anorexia is a mental illness akin to OCD, you cannot point the finger at some random skinny model and shout they are the cause of it.

Just like, many children play violent video games, almost none become physchoic murderers. You have to be predisposed to being not right in the head to want go out and murder someone.To sum up, you have the cause and effect backwards.

Video games don't tent to make people violent. People with violent tendancies tend to play violent video games.
Girls aren't anorexic to look like Kate Moss, they are anorexic anyway but hold Kate Moss as a shining beacon. When in many cases she weighs more than they do.

eg

http://punchitin.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/kate-moss.jpg

 

[DanP]

It's that fault of our entire sociecty. Especially in America where the media and people are obsessed with celebity and looks. Frankly... we should ban airbrushing and the shopping of photos in magazines, that would do more to convince pople that these celebrites aren't perfect. For example my missus reads heat magazine. A magazine that bashes people for becoming skinny, then bashes poeple for putting on weight. It's this kind of thing that breeds a society where no one is comfortable with their bodies.

Agreed on all points.

The issue is even a bit more deep. Everything revolves around money and economy. Fashion, movie industry , music industry ,sports , even research grants :P

We all love to look at a certain sport. To buy tickets to baseball, football, hockey, MMA promotions. You name it. Promoters and team owners want to give ppl the circus, for they pay good money for it. They get in their teams or promotions the best sportsman, the ppl who deliver.

Yet what's happening behind the curtain is pretty though. To stay on top as a professional sportsman you have to give up a lot of things. There are thousands of professional hokey players , football players, you name it, with permanent damage to musculoskeletal system.

Boxers with neurological issues. Overuse injuries from the years of training you get through to first become competitive, then remain competitive at elite levels. Weightlifters who had to go through back operations. Lot of other athletes with knee reconstruction surgery. Wrestlers competing in much lower weight classes than their natural weight. Bodybuilders who abuse steroids to remain at the top where money are.

The situation is no better in amateur sport.

The want to be candidates catch very fast the idea that to be on top of your field, you have to pay your dues. To be "bigger,faster, stronger" so you are one of the ppl who are chosen to give the crowds the circus, you have to do a lot of unhealthy things.

You don't need KM to tell you what it takes to succeed. Its common knowledge already. The industry fires size 5 models. I heard even of a size 4 fired. Heidi Klum stated that she was considered too big for catwalk. You want at the top, you have to pay the dues.

 

[DanP]

I do find her quite attractive physically.

http://punchitin.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/kate-moss.jpg

[/URL]

 

[DaveC426913]

She appears to have no health problems, her BMI is underweight, but not dangerously so. Se wears a size 4 US, which is a UK size 6. So we are not talking about someone who is stupidly skinny here, no one would consider a size 6 in the UK to be stupidly small.

So, your opinion then. OK.

You are attributing the causes of triggering anorexia to one group of people. Basically saying... they are thin.. they are succesful... they are the problem. Not taking into account other factors that are more likely to have a causal link.

Yes people wish to emulate a celebrity's style and figure. Most do this by going to the gym and attempting to lose weight healthily. Anorexia is a mental illness akin to OCD, you cannot point the finger at some random skinny model and shout they are the cause of it.

You are putting words in my mouth. And you are creating a straw man.

You are welcome to have all the above opinions if you wish and make any claims you wish, but they are your opinions and claims, not mine. Address my words, not your mangling of your interpretation of my words.

Just like, many children play violent video games, almost none become physchoic murderers. You have to be predisposed to being not right in the head to want go out and murder someone.


To sum up, you have the cause and effect backwards.

Video games don't tent to make people violent. People with violent tendancies tend to play violent video games.

This is a straw man. Straw men tend to be invoked when one's argument against the subject at hand is weak and one wishes to move the argument to a more advantageous battlefield. I don't think that's what you intended to portray. Stick to the subject at-hand.

Girls aren't anorexic to look like Kate Moss, they are anorexic anyway but hold Kate Moss as a shining beacon. When in many cases she weighs more than they do.

BTW, I did not raise the anorexia issue. Anorexia is a mental illness.

Independent of that, young girls are trying to model themselves after their idols (a shining beacon as you agree) and risking their health.

 

[DaveC426913]

I do find her quite attractive physically.

Meh. As I always like to say:

"Monsiuer, zee bones are for zee dog. Ze meat eez for zee man!"

 

[xxChrisxx]

This is a straw man. Straw men tend to be invoked when one's argument against the subject at hand is weak and one wishes to move the argument to a more advantageous battlefield. I don't think that's what you intended to portray. Stick to the subject at-hand.

It's not a staw man, its an analogy. A bloody good one too.

You think that pointing out logical fallacies, seemingly at random makes you sound like you are a cool debater. They do not. you also always do it when you are stumped at a sensible answer. The analogy in this case was spot on, and used as an aid for you to attempt to make the mental leap as to why you are talking utter rubbish.If you want to play that little game of name the fallacy. post hoc ergo propter hoc.

No. Normal young girls who do not need to lose weight are starving themselves sick to model themselves after her and other unhealthily skinny stereotypes.

You are attributing an effect to a cause, the effect is bad, and implying that getting rid of the cause will solve the problem. Which is utter tosh. Girls (and boys for that matter) who starve themselves do it becuase of a. mental illness and b. lack of security with themselves. Getting rid of skinny stereotypes would do nothing to solve the problem.

People can't possible be anorxic to look like Kate Mass, as skeletor above looks disgusting, but Kate Moss looks fit as a butchers dog.

 

[DaveC426913]

It's not a staw man, its an analogy. A bloody good one too.

You think that pointing out logical fallacies, seemingly at random makes you sound like you are a cool debater. They do not. you also always do it when you are stumped at a sensible answer. The analogy in this case was spot on, and used as an aid for you to attempt to make the mental leap as to why you are talking utter rubbish.

I'm not sure why you are so defensive about this. Your hostility (and presumption of my motives) is unwarranted. I did not attrack or insult you. I'll thank you to be civil in return.


I pointed out that your analogy does not match the point at-hand. As just one example, it is much easier to refute a video game / violence argument because, among other things, the video game violence thing is far too generalized. It is very easy to refute such a general argument. Is it different than Kate Moss because with Kate Moss we have a specific, singular entity that is doing a specific thing. You can't point me at other Kate Moss' in other interviews as counter-examples.

While I am not saying the two situations have nothing in common, I am saying that arguing the video games / violence argument will not shed light on the Kate Moss argument. It will argue different points, and take the discussion in a different direction.. Which is what makes it a straw man.

 

[DanP]

Can it be that "Ze meat eez for zee man" is the explanation for this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/BRFSS_obesity_1985-2006.gif

Meh. As I always like to say:

"Monsiuer, zee bones are for zee dog. Ze meat eez for zee man!"

 

[DaveC426913]

You are attributing an effect to a cause, the effect is bad, and implying that getting rid of the cause will solve the problem. Which is utter tosh.

Yes it is utter tosh, which is why I didn't imply it.

Argue the words I say, not the words you put in my mouth.

Girls (and boys for that matter) who starve themselves do it becuase of a. mental illness and b. lack of security with themselves.

And c] because they dream of being supermodels.

This is fact. Interviews with young girls show that it happens.



You seem to think I am making cause and effect, and then you are assuming assuming "cause" means "the only cause". It's not. Stop attributing that to me.

They are linked. Society and the fashion industry and the models do contribute to this problem. Interviews with aspiring young girls show this.

 

[DaveC426913]

Can it be that "Ze meat eez for zee man" is the explanation for this?

OK,
1]With zero context, no title or even a key to show what's being measured, that chart is nothing more than a pretty piece of art.

2] I was addressing the comment about Kate Moss being attractive. I prefer women with some meat on their bones. In my eye, the feminine form is a curved form. This is all I was saying, nothing more.

 

[cristo]

Then they are tards.

After comments like that, this thread isn't going anywhere productive.

 

[DanP]

OK,
1]With zero context, no title or even a key to show what's being measured, that chart is nothing more than a pretty piece of art.

2] I was addressing the comment about Kate Moss being attractive. I prefer women with some meat on their bones. In my eye, the feminine form is a curved form. This is all I was saying, nothing more.

I know Dave, I just wanted to see if you appreciate art :P