Is Michael Moore's The Awful Truth the Most Entertaining Political Commentary?

[Cyrus]

Yeah, you Americans work ALOT. No offense, but not something I'm into. I'm not into 50+ hour work weeks. I will never want more than 40 hours, but 35 hours is preferred for me.

I have no idea how Americans put up with all the work. Sad.

We need money for food and clothing and rent money?

 

[JasonRox]

We need money for food and clothing and rent money?

I would hope that doesn't require 50 hours a week! Sometimes it does for some people but I would not for the average person. I wouldn't consider that high living standards.

 

[Cyrus]

I would hope that doesn't require 50 hours a week! Sometimes it does for some people but I would not for the average person. I wouldn't consider that high living standards.

Most americans probably work much more than 50 hours a week to make ends meet.

Look, the USA is not france. We are not a small country. We are a super-power. We have the biggest most advanced fighting force in the world, deployed all over the world. That takes money. Fighting wars take's money. Fixing the infrastructure of such a HUGE country takes money. Don't compare a small country the size of one state in the US, to the entire US.

 

[JasonRox]

Most americans probably work much more than 50 hours a week to make ends meet.

Look, the USA is not france. We are not a small country. We are a super-power. We have the biggest most advanced fighting force in the world, deployed all over the world. That takes money. Fighting wars take's money. Fixing the infrastructure of such a HUGE country takes money. Don't compare a small country the size of one state in the US, to the entire US.

Working 50 plus hours a week is NOT high standards of living. I consider them VERY low. Sorry buddy. We live a life with higher standards in Canada and France and elsewhere in the world.

 

[Cyrus]

Working 50 plus hours a week is NOT high standards of living. I consider them VERY low. Sorry buddy. We live a life with higher standards in Canada and France and elsewhere in the world.

When did I say it was a high standard of living?

Isnt all the medical research done in the USA, and paid for by customers in the USA, so Canada, etc, can buy the end product cheap and give it away cheap. I'd like to see Canada research and develop their own drugs and give it away for free...

Also, last time I checked...what's your military doing? Oh right...nothing. Of course you're going to have more money to put back into the people. You have a lot less over head.

Oh yeah, and have your government have major funding for all areas of high tech research while your at it. Face it, we are the leading country in high tech stuff because we spend loads and loads of money on it. That money has to come from somewhere -taxes.

People want good schools for their kids - taxes

People want a police department and fire station - taxes

People don't want to be blown up by terrorists - taxes

People want the best, most advanced military in the world - taxes...

My friend gets taxed 30% because he's single with no kids. Also, most people have to work two jobs because min wage doesn't cut it at 35 hours a week.

 

[JasonRox]

When did I say it was a high standard of living?

Isnt all the medical research done in the USA, and paid for by customers in the USA, so Canada, etc, can buy the end product cheap and give it away cheap. I'd like to see Canada research and develop their own drugs and give it away for free...

Also, last time I checked...what's your military doing? Oh right...nothing. Of course you're going to have more money to put back into the people. You have a lot less over head.

Um... we do our research. How are you damn ignorant? Sure they're American companies, but there are research facilities in Canada!

We don't need an army. The world doesn't hate us.

 

[Cyrus]

Um... we do our research. How are you damn ignorant? Sure they're American companies, but there are research facilities in Canada!

We don't need an army. The world doesn't hate us.

Oh, so you mean its ok when you make generalizations about the US, but if I do it to Canada you're offended? If you're going to make silly comments about the US, I'm going to make silly comments about Canada. OR, we could both just knock it off.


Jason, our military spending alone is more than the entire world combined. Who do you think pays for that? Candians can rest assured at night that no one is going to bother them because they know if anyone does try anything, and I mean anything the United States government is going to turn that country into a parking lot since it will be viewed as a threat to our security. So, yes you don't have an army jason. Because you don't need one. The US military and US dollar very much pays for your security.

I'd like to know EXACTLY how much research Canada does in comparison to the united states, and how much of your 'free medicine' comes from US companies that did the research. Research is very very expensive. If all a country does is buy the results and doesn't put up any of the money for the R&D, and then boasts about how they give away free medicine, that's sleezy.

BTW, those airplanes you Candian's are flying around in...are american made F-18's. That airplane was made in part with the help of american government agencies like NASA, the US military, DoD, and universities. We put up tremendous intellectual property in the things you guys buy. Let's see Canada design and build their own equivalent F-18 at anywhere near the same price they buy them from the US government.

 

[Cyrus]

http://www.washingtonceo.com/home/story-display/article/225/the-health-c.html I didnt read this link, but it has a nice chart to show you in terms of how much we spend on healthcare compared to the rest of the world.

Look at our spending at NIH (a pure research institution) alone, $28 billion annually. That's just government research, and its a quarter of all of what Canada spends on their healthcare.

http://www.nih.gov/about/budget.htm

There's a reason why we have the best military, best medicine, best colleges, best opportunity to advance, as compared to any other country in the world. But you have to work hard in order to obtain these things. That's why this isn't socialism.

You really need to grow up and stop sitting there pointing your finger at americans every chance you get jason. Do you ever hear americans talking about Canadians the way you talk about americas? -Never.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

In France, they force you to take vacations. If a company is caught not allowing you to, they are in SERIOUS trouble. It's no joke.

Culture values are strong and countries that have them don't joke about them or let it "slide".

What sort of employment is necessary to have the legal right to those five weeks paid vacation in France? Do you get those five weeks if you are on a temporary employment contract? And what percentage of the work force in France are on temporary employment contracts because their employers can't afford to hire permanent employees due to these mandatory benefits? How long does it take for benefits to kick in once you start work on a regular contract? I think I've read that it's about a year unless you have one of the new contracts which allows a probation period of up to two years before you are permanent. And of course companies like to hire people and then fire them or lay them off before their probation period is up to avoid these expenses. A year makes for a lot of work you can get out of someone. In the US probabtion is only three months tops.

I'm looking and so far I can't find answers to these questions.

 

[russ_watters]

Yeah, you Americans work ALOT. No offense, but not something I'm into. I'm not into 50+ hour work weeks. I will never want more than 40 hours, but 35 hours is preferred for me.

I have no idea how Americans put up with all the work. Sad.

[separate post]
I would hope that doesn't require 50 hours a week! Sometimes it does for some people but I would not for the average person. I wouldn't consider that high living standards.

That's fine. I work more, I get paid more, I have more money. I consider that a higher standard of living.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, but isn't productivity per person in France higher?

It doesn't actually give any data, so it is hard to say what they mean. Given that American workers make considerably more money than their French counterparts, I suspect he means they have higher productivity per hour worked, not overall.

And his attempt at explaining the French youth unemployment problem is pretty silly/illogical.

He's also quite wrong about there not being a need to stay competitive (that 'once you're developed, there is no need to develop more' rediculousness). The simple truth is that if you don't continue to increase your GDP, your absolute standard of living will go down. The easiest example demonstrating that is the price of oil, but the concept applies everywhere. As demand goes up, price goes up, and if your income doesn't go up with it, you can afford less of it. This will become a very serious problem for France (and much of Western Eurpoe), as China develops.

Not a well-written article (and not a mainstream source, I might add).

 

[Alfi]

From
I like / dislike the entertainment that Mike Moore produces
to
productivity in France and vacation time.


back to the OP
I think Mr. Moore is good at what he does. He makes films that people pay money to see.
It's probable that there are productions that show 'other' depictions of the same events but they must not be as good because they are not pointed to/at as often.

In this site, I have noticed that almost all statements are asked to be proven or dis-proven with specific examples. I also notice that Moore's films are only said to be lies or distortions as a whole without any specifics. It would be nice to see an example of 'he said " ..." and that is incorrect because of "...".

 

[JasonRox]

In Quebec City, I met a group of Americans who are in the Navy. The shipped docked off to show tours to the tourists and so on. The ship was accompanied by two Canadian ships, one Australian and one from France. Clearly, the American ship in the group was the best. It had the longest line for the tour and so on. I chose to see the Canadian ships since the line wasn't so long and you get to see both ships in one tour.

The group of Navy I met said they couldn't wait to finish their term and then come live in Canada. For such a great country, it's unfortunate that this is happening. I wouldn't want soldiers fighting for my country with that kind of attitude.

The thing you also need to consider is that Canada has 30 million compared to 300 million in the US. So, you must compare things in terms of GDP and not in term of plain dollars. You have to look at what is representative of what the country is doing. Yes, we spend next to nothing from our GDP onto military objectives. Hence, poor army. We do spend a lot on other things. Remember, our highways are free. We let anyone drive on them for free. That's NOT cheap. We pay higher taxes for this. Anyways, I'd be willing to pay even more taxes to have a better army and to wipe out debt. I even put 5% of my tax return directly on our debt in Canada (optional). It would make no sense for me to say I'd be willing to do it if I don't do it when I have the opportunity to. But yes, I stand by paying higher taxes to keep the life I have. I don't pay much as a student but then again, I never use my tax returns and so on for living. So if I didn't get it back, it wouldn't affect me and neither would paying 3-5% more in taxes.

My roommate was pro-American and he lived in Canada for 4-5 years (from Morroco). After spending 3 months with me, he saw what I was explaining to him is Canadian life. He hated taxes and all that jazz. After those 3 months, he said he'd be willing to pay more to live like that. He basically looked at it like our whole lives is just a big vacation. Sacrifices must be made like paying more taxes, don't spend all your money on things you don't need (PS3, XBOX360, new laptops every year, new cellphone every 6-12 months, a new car when the old one is running solid). I'm sure my roommate still wants to go to America although he rarely speaks about it now. I did insist that he apply for his green card and so on, and to do it now while he's younger.

Also, I would hate to hear Americans think that they only ones contributing to this world. Maybe that's just a cultural thing.

Anyways, some interesting links...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/o...ewanted=all&oref=slogin&emc=th&pagewanted=all

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

Also, where do people get this long wait time thing in Canada? If you go during rush hour, you will wait awhile for sure. (Canadians can go to the hospital anytime they want with no worries so they all go at the most convenient time which is practically the same for everyone. That is early morning or right after work.)

I've had many surgeries in my life and no I will not count them. I've never waited longer than 2-4 weeks. You just have to know where to go. Canadians all go at the same time and the same place. I went to the doctor 2 weeks ago and it was just after the rush was ending. If you go at the wrong place, you'll wait like an hour or two (at most). But then, I went to a different place and waited 15 minutes. Wrong place plus wrong time equals long wait time. I went after the rush and to a different location. People choose the same location because it's on path to work or on path to go home and so on. So some hospitals and clinic get filled up really fast because that's the number 1 location while some other location has available capacity. (This may not happen in the US because you don't seem to have the freedom to go anywhere.) It's kind of like going to McDonald's. Go during rush hour in the popular part of town, you will wait.

One of the surgeries I needed required a 3 month wait minimum at some hospital and I called that hospital basically because it was the most popular for that kind of procedure. It's just a simple surgery too. So, I went around and looked for other surgeons who perform the surgery like routine and I found a surgeon (you can do this online or through yellow pages since again we don't need to double check with insurance or anything ridiculous). Met up with him so he can see the issue and see what needs to be done, and then I had an appointment 2 weeks later compared to a minimum of 12 weeks. How was the surgery? Just like I expected it to be. Full recovery.

Yeah, so that wait time thing is crazy.

 

[Topher925]

I don't really like Moore, but you can't really argue with him. He gets his information directly from primary sources and while his opinions are biased, they make sense. He should get rid of that fat southern hippie look though. Thats not doing to much for his image.

EDIT: Thanks for taking out nuclear waste Canada!

 

[Alfi]

He should get rid of that fat southern hippie look though. Thats not doing to much for his image.

I don't really think his films are aimed at the white collar wall street types.
He plays to his audience, with an image a majority of people can identify with.

 

[russ_watters]

In Quebec City, I met a group of Americans who are in the Navy. The shipped docked off to show tours to the tourists and so on. The ship was accompanied by two Canadian ships, one Australian and one from France.

I was on a deployment like that, possibly the same one, 6 years ago. Were all the ships roughly the same size frigates and was it a NATO exercise?

Clearly, the American ship in the group was the best. It had the longest line for the tour and so on. I chose to see the Canadian ships since the line wasn't so long and you get to see both ships in one tour.

Ironically, when I was on that deployment, we were with a Spanish ship that was identical to ours. We still had perhaps 5x as many people tour ours - it had nothing to do with who'se ship was the "best". In fact, the American ship was probably an old, obsolte frigate. A real piece of crap.

The group of Navy I met said they couldn't wait to finish their term and then come live in Canada. For such a great country, it's unfortunate that this is happening. I wouldn't want soldiers fighting for my country with that kind of attitude.

Ok, now I understand why you think what you think about Americans - for sailors, every port (while they are there) is the best port they've been to. They are so hard up for some beer and women that it doesn't matter where they are. None of them ever end up living in those ports, though.

I will say this - if you're in Nova Scotia, that is generally considered to be one of the best ports due to the male/female ratio being so favorable.

In any case, that's not a very good cross section of the American population that you observed.

 

[russ_watters]

In this site, I have noticed that almost all statements are asked to be proven or dis-proven with specific examples. I also notice that Moore's films are only said to be lies or distortions as a whole without any specifics. It would be nice to see an example of 'he said " ..." and that is incorrect because of "...".

A google for "Michael Moore Debunk" turns up lots of good hits. Here's one for F911:
http://www.tommyduggan.com/VP080304moore.html

Sicko: http://www.davepetno.com/blog/index.php?itemid=20

 

[JasonRox]

I was on a deployment like that, possibly the same one, 6 years ago. Were all the ships roughly the same size frigates and was it a NATO exercise? Ironically, when I was on that deployment, we were with a Spanish ship that was identical to ours. We still had perhaps 5x as many people tour ours - it had nothing to do with who'se ship was the "best". In fact, the American ship was probably an old, obsolte frigate. A real piece of crap. Ok, now I understand why you think what you think about Americans - for sailors, every port (while they are there) is the best port they've been to. They are so hard up for some beer and women that it doesn't matter where they are. None of them ever end up living in those ports, though.

I will say this - if you're in Nova Scotia, that is generally considered to be one of the best ports due to the male/female ratio being so favorable.

In any case, that's not a very good cross section of the American population that you observed.

I went out the night the Navy went out but the only ones to get girls were the French from France. That's what I saw anyways. Lots of laughs that night though.

 

[russ_watters]

Most americans probably work much more than 50 hours a week to make ends meet.

These numbers probably include unemployed (but in the work force) and part time workers, but for the US, they have 34 hours a week and France 26: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Annual_hours_over_eight_centuries

The "standard" work week in the US is 40 hours and the "standard" work week in France is 35. For those stats, they have a lot more vacation and stricter control of overtime, as well as higher unemployment. At the same time, I suspect they have fewer part time, particularly young workers.

Btw, it seems I have been misusing a word here and I want to make sure my meaning is clear: When I have said "productivity", I mean the actual production of the country per worker. This is probably just per capita GDP. When we read about "productivity" in newspaper articles, they are generally referring to output per hour. It should be relatively obvious that the efficiency of workers increases as their hours worked decreases (they don't get tired, burned-out, etc.). But what I'm going after is the effect that has on the overall economy - it makes the economy smaller.

 

[russ_watters]

I went out the night the Navy went out but the only ones to get girls were the French from France. That's what I saw anyways.

Oh, I didn't say they got girls - just that there are a lot of girls there.

 

[JasonRox]

Oh, I didn't say they got girls - just that there are a lot of girls there.

Quebec City is the same way.

I should plan a trip out east though.

 

[LightbulbSun]

So Jason, are you going to explain why socialism is the way to go?

 

[Alfi]

Originally Posted by Alfi
In this site, I have noticed that almost all statements are asked to be proven or dis-proven with specific examples. I also notice that Moore's films are only said to be lies or distortions as a whole without any specifics. It would be nice to see an example of 'he said " ..." and that is incorrect because of "..."....

A google for "Michael Moore Debunk" turns up lots of good hits. Here's one for F911:
http://www.tommyduggan.com/VP080304moore.html

Sicko: http://www.davepetno.com/blog/index.php?itemid=20
__________________hmmm - they're not very good at debunking.
They tend to agree with Moore as to the 'facts' but just try to interrupt them in their own slant. Just as Mike did.

 

[LightbulbSun]

hmmm - they're not very good at debunking.
They tend to agree with Moore as to the 'facts' but just try to interrupt them in their own slant. Just as Mike did.

Did you even read the sources cited? They clearly do not agree with Moore.

 

[vanesch]

Come on, 2 weeks of vacation a year... sad just sad. France, Morroco, New Zealand all get minimum of 5 weeks vacation and the list of countries is bigger (just can't reference them but those 3 I know for sure).

Mmm... I get 11 weeks of vacation a year... (55 days, apart from weekends and official hollidays...)... It didn't take me too long to get used to it

 

[Alfi]

Did you even read the sources cited? They clearly do not agree with Moore.

Why Yes! I did.
That is why I could reply with an informed opinion.

I read and I concluded that they very clearly do not agree with Moore.
However, they do not disagree with any statement that Moore makes either.

Facts/claim: F 9/ll: President Bush has close ties to the Bin Laden Family and with Prince Bandar.
responce : Facts: A tie to the Bin Laden family is not a tie to Usama.

Duh ! nor is any other ( add fictional/additional/sidetracking reference here ) claim to tie anyone to Usama
Ya ?? so what ? Is this a refute to the ties between President Bush and to the Bin Laden Family? Or a sad deflection to try to include things that were not said or claimed?
The relationship as stated, exists.
This is a deflection from the Fact that "President Bush has close ties to the Bin Laden Family and with Prince Bandar." was the claim.
He does, and he still does is the fact.Facts: The Bin Laden family members did not depart until 9/20,
reply : They were allowed to leave by the FBI Assistant Director for Counter Terrorism, Dale Watson, but ...
BUT!... ? 'but' doesn't deny the fact as stated.
Did, or did not? the plane leave US airspace when all other planes non warplanes were grounded?

Fact:?? Bush protected Bin Laden by not attacking Afghanistan rapidly or aggressively enough.
duh ! this is only a Mike Moore opinion.
? Why did this site claim that what was opinionated to be a 'fact' to be debunked?NOT very good ! ...at debunking any 'fact' that Mr. Moore states is still my opinion about the site offered and their ability to debunk the facts ... as stated.

 

[Cyrus]

Why Yes! I did.
That is why I could reply with an informed opinion.

I read and I concluded that they very clearly do not agree with Moore.
However, they do not disagree with any statement that Moore makes either.

Facts/claim: F 9/ll: President Bush has close ties to the Bin Laden Family and with Prince Bandar.
responce : Facts: A tie to the Bin Laden family is not a tie to Usama.

Duh ! nor is any other ( add fictional/additional/sidetracking reference here ) claim to tie anyone to Usama
Ya ?? so what ? Is this a refute to the ties between President Bush and to the Bin Laden Family? Or a sad deflection to try to include things that were not said or claimed?
The relationship as stated, exists.
This is a deflection from the Fact that "President Bush has close ties to the Bin Laden Family and with Prince Bandar." was the claim.
He does, and he still does is the fact.


Facts: The Bin Laden family members did not depart until 9/20,
reply : They were allowed to leave by the FBI Assistant Director for Counter Terrorism, Dale Watson, but ...
BUT!... ? 'but' doesn't deny the fact as stated.
Did, or did not? the plane leave US airspace when all other planes non warplanes were grounded?

Fact:?? Bush protected Bin Laden by not attacking Afghanistan rapidly or aggressively enough.
duh ! this is only a Mike Moore opinion.
? Why did this site claim that what was opinionated to be a 'fact' to be debunked?


NOT very good ! ...at debunking any 'fact' that Mr. Moore states is still my opinion about the site offered and their ability to debunk the facts ... as stated.

Could you possibly type a response like a normal human being so I can understand that the heck you're talking about?

 

[Gokul43201]

Mmm... I get 11 weeks of vacation a year... (55 days, apart from weekends and official hollidays...)

Wow!

 

[Cyrus]

Wow!

(I think he's a teacher, i.e. summer breaks!)

 

[B. Elliott]

(I think he's a teacher, i.e. summer breaks!)

For most teachers I know, they really only get about a total of two weeks off every summer.