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News Is New Hampshire the first Libertarian State?

  1. Aug 24, 2011 #1

    FlexGunship

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    Is New Hampshire the first Libertarian State? And if it is (or isn't), what role do government policies play in it's success as a state?​

    Well, this is an off-shoot of a discussion in a different forum. I chose to repost it here because there was a lot of good discussion about it but it exceeded the bounds of the original thread. So here is a brief list of some of the attributes and achievements of my home state. I'm listing qualities that most closely match traditional Libertarian ideology.

    New Hampshire policy includes:
    • No general sales tax
    • No state income tax
    • No inventory taxes for businesses which encouraged many businesses to move to NH during the recession
    • Ranked 9th friendliest to businesses (http://www.cnbc.com/id/37516038)
    • Has overruled the federal mandate to have health insurance making it legal to chose to have it or not - SB148
    • Returned $666,000 in funds for healthcare BACK to the federal government for the EXPLICIT and STATED intentions of helping to reduce the federal deficit - HB601
    • NH supreme court passed an amendment in 2006 forbidding seizure of private property by eminent domain
    • Open carry of firearms permitted everywhere except courtrooms with no permit
    • Concealed carry permits available to any member of the public (http://www.governor.nh.gov/media/news/2011/010611-inaugural.htm [Broken])

    As a result:
    • Ranked 4th highest quality of living (http://www.cnbc.com/id/37516038)
    • Ranked best state for well-being of children (http://www.aecf.org/)
    • 2nd healthiest state in 2006
    • 3rd healthiest state in 2007
    • 3rd healthiest state in 2008
    • 2nd healthiest state in 2009
    • 3rd healthiest state in 2010 (http://www.americashealthrankings.org/)
    • 3rd lowest unemployment rate in the U.S. (http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm)
    • 3rd largest proportion of high-tech jobs in the U.S.; including being the only state to ADD high-tech jobs during the onset of the recession; it was 8th in 2008 (http://www.supplylinedirect.com/assets/items/ug-pr300.jpg [Broken])
    • Lowest rate of gun-related homicides in the U.S.(as of 2004; the most recent by-the-state data I could find: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/)
    • Safest state in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011

    So, once again... do New Hampshire's policies make it the most Libertarian state in the Union? And do any of the policies contribute to the results seen?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2017
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  3. Aug 24, 2011 #2

    turbo

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    You have posted "As a result" as though correlation implies causation. I don't see this linkage. That's OK, because I'm not willing to wade through a gazillion pages of stats to analyze causation. Still, it might be a good idea to document (with acceptable sources) just how "policy" turns into "results". NH happens to be a low-population state that borders on a high-wage state (MA) and that appears nowhere in your "policy" list.
     
  4. Aug 24, 2011 #3

    Evo

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    Flex, if you are going to post "facts" don't cherry pick them, show all of the "facts".

    Hmmm, could it because it has one of the lowest population densities (ranked 42nd lowest in the US) and one of the wealthiest (ranked 6th highest in the US)?

    Population Ranked 42nd in the U.S.
    - Total 1,316,470 (2010 census)[1]
    1,235,786 (2000)
    - Density 146.8/sq mi (56.68/km2)
    Ranked 20th in the U.S.
    - Median income $60,441 (6th)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire

    And one of the whitest (by race)

    According to the 2010 U.S. Census Bureau, the racial makeup of New Hampshire was as follows:[21]

    93.9% White (92.3% Non-Hispanic White)
    2.2% Asian
    1.1% Black or African American
    0.2% Native American/American Indian
    1.6% Two or more races

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire#Demographics

    What do you think New Hampshire's illegal alien population is?

    You don't have high crime because you don't have racial tension, you don't have illegal immigrants, your cities aren't overcrowded so you don't have the poverty and unemployment that comes with these things. It has nothing to do with Libertarian views. Let's ship you a few million poor, uneducated, unemployed violent people from inner cities and along the border and see how your lax laws work. :tongue2:

    Libertarians did not come in and fix any problems like crime, poverty, high unemployment, illegal immigrants, because there were none of these problems to fix.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  5. Aug 24, 2011 #4
    Even libertarians have their limits. In the case WOOLEY v. MAYNARD NH argued successfully in the supreme court that they can prohibit citizens from covering up the the state motto "Live Free or Die" on licence plates.
     
  6. Aug 24, 2011 #5
    Meh. Their licence plates are ugly anyway.
     
  7. Aug 24, 2011 #6

    mheslep

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    So is Vermont. So is Maine (almost). I wonder how they compare to NH?
     
  8. Aug 24, 2011 #7

    BobG

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    Actually, the US Supreme Court ruled that New Hampshire couldn't prohibit citizens from covering up the motto.

    Interesting case. I presume Maynard's preferred motto was "Live Free or Be Cited Three Times in Five Weeks for Covering Up the State Motto on Your License Plate" or "Live Free or Spend 15 Days in Jail for Covering Up the State Motto on Your License Plate". Except the latter would present a paradox and would have required an entire bumper sticker (in fact, Rehnquist suggested that a bumper sticker would have been a more appropriate response in his dissent).

    How could a person better express the state motto than Maynard did? :rofl:

    Well, aside from actually dying, of course, but I'm pretty sure he eventually will die; just not in New Hampshire. He later moved to Connecticut where he received a traffic citation for covering up Connecticut's "The Constitution State" motto on his license plate.
    (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=15440 [Broken])
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2017
  9. Aug 24, 2011 #8

    Evo

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    Maine has the lowest violent crime, followed by Vermont, with New Hampshire having the highest crime rate of the three.

    Vermont 2008 per 100,000 residents

    Violent crime total - 141
    Murder - 2.8
    Forcible rape - 21.8
    Robbery - 15.4
    Aggravated Assault - 101

    New Hampshire

    Violent Crime total - 166
    Murder - 1.1
    Forcible rape - 30.6
    Robbery - 34.5
    Aggravated Assault - 100

    Maine

    Violent crime total - 119
    Murder - 2.4
    Forcible rape - 28.8
    Robbery - 25.3
    Aggravated Assault - 63

    http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0304.pdf [Broken]
     
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  10. Aug 24, 2011 #9

    mheslep

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    Yes that's apparently the case for reported/estimated violent crime in the aggregate, if not for murder. I note FlexGun's one statement above about crime, "Lowest rate of gun-related homicides in the US", appears likely to hold at 1.1/100k for homicides-any-weapon w/ only Utah slightly lower.

    Property Crime per 100k, same source:

    Maine
    Total 2,464
    Burg 498
    Theft 1,876
    Car 90

    New Hampshire
    Total 2,218
    Burg 334
    Theft 1,772
    Car 112

    Vermont
    Total 2,620
    Burg 577
    Theft 1,947
    Car 97
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2017
  11. Aug 24, 2011 #10

    Evo

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    flex was talking about saftey, so that would mean that the violent crime statistics would be the appropriate statistics, and New Hampshire is the most violent.

    I'm more concerned about being a victim of violent crime than non-violent theft.
     
  12. Aug 24, 2011 #11

    mheslep

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    Or many alternatives, like car wrecks. FlexG didn't cite a reference for that one so I dunno.

    Me too.
     
  13. Aug 24, 2011 #12

    Evo

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  14. Aug 24, 2011 #13

    mheslep

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    Attached Files:

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  15. Aug 24, 2011 #14

    Evo

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    I had already started a chart to compare the three states but only got New Hampshire & VT done.

    New Hampshire has more violent crime, more rapes, more robberies, more assualts and more auto theft per 100,000. New Hampshire looked a bit better with the census bureau reports I posted. Here is the notepad, Maine is missing, I apologize, you need to open and go to full page to read it.

    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/vtcrime.htm

    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/mecrime.htm

    There is something wrong with you chart, when I click on it, your legend is invisible.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  16. Aug 25, 2011 #15
    I'd say so on both counts. You forgot "sanest state," but I don't think there are too many awards for that sort of thing.

    Lacking a line averaging crime from other states, particularly neighboring states (VT, MA, and ME) it's an isolated and meaningless factoid.
     
  17. Aug 25, 2011 #16

    FlexGunship

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    Sorry, here it is.

    http://www.governor.nh.gov/media/news/2010/040510-safest.htm [Broken]

    Here are a few corroborating sources for other years:
    http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/northeast/view.bg?articleid=1296825 [Broken]
    http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-03-24/entertainment/17917179_1_murder-rate-lowest-crime-rate-burglaries-and-motor-vehicle [Broken]
    http://americaswatchtower.com/2008/03/19/new-hampshire-named-the-nations-safest-state/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2017
  18. Aug 25, 2011 #17

    FlexGunship

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    Would you agree that if there were states with lower racial diversity but higher crime that this would effectively lessen the strength of your argument? What about a state with a lower population or population density? I understand that there are outliers for all datasets, but there doesn't seem to be a strong link between population, population density, or racial diversity and violent crime.

    By your reasoning above, we would expect Wyoming to have the absolute lowest possible crime rate. It is "whiter" than New Hampshire, has fewer people than New Hampshire, and has a significantly lower population density than New Hampshire. However, the data don't seem to show that trend that your argument predicts: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0304.pdf [Broken].

    In 2007 and 2008 New Hampshire had more than twice the population of Wyoming. Furthermore, it has a statistically significantly higher percentage of "white" population.

    Population:
    • Wyoming: 560,000
    • New Hampshire: 1,300,000

    Population Density:
    • Wyoming: 5.4/sq mi
    • New Hampshire: 146.8/sq mi (20th highest density in the U.S.)

    Racial diversity:
    • Wyoming: 96% white
    • New Hampshire: 92% white

    Violent crimes per 100,000 persons:
    • Wyoming: 239
    • New Hampshire: 137

    There are a lot of explanations for these discrepancies, but couldn't enacting good policies that lead to a thriving and wealthy state be part of that explanation?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2017
  19. Aug 25, 2011 #18

    FlexGunship

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    Wyoming borders Colorado and the same relationship is not seen.
     
  20. Aug 25, 2011 #19

    turbo

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    Consider the demographics. NH's population is heavily concentrated near the MA border, so a lot of NH residents are within an easy commute to cities and high-wage jobs in MA. I think that situation is quite important to the economic viability of your state, don't you?
     
  21. Aug 25, 2011 #20

    FlexGunship

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    Frankly, not how you are portraying it. I live immediately on the border, but most folks I know abhor working in Massachusetts since you are responsible for paying their income tax if you do. It's an automatic pay cut.

    That being said, there are certainly plenty of cars headed down I-95 south each morning, so it's entirely possible that it's a significant source of wealth for New Hampshire. However, there are SIGNIFICANTLY more cars coming north from Massachusetts in the morning. The Little Bay Bridge traffic jam (on the Spaulding turnpike) attests to that. Those Mass-holes clog the northbound roads every morning.

    In my opinion, this indicates that New Hampshire offers a better climate for employability, even for people that come from a WEALTHIER state. Perhaps if Massachusetts had no income tax, or no inventory tax, folks from New Hampshire would be employed there instead.

    EDIT: I suppose I could pose the question in reverse. "Massachusetts is very close to New Hampshire's highest-tech oriented cities (Nashua, Salem, Portsmouth, Manchester). I think that situation is quite important to the economic viability to Massachusetts, don't you?"

    Devil's advocate; not trying to be confrontational.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
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