News Is Offshore Oil Drilling Truly Safe?

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The discussion centers on the safety of offshore oil drilling in light of a recent explosion and ongoing oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Participants express skepticism about the industry's claims of improved safety, particularly questioning the effectiveness of emergency fail-safes that were supposed to prevent such disasters. Concerns are raised about the lack of preparedness for a blowout, with experts indicating it could take weeks or months to stop the leak. The conversation also touches on the environmental impact of the spill and the adequacy of current containment measures. Overall, the thread highlights a significant distrust in the oil industry's safety protocols and a call for better preparedness before drilling operations commence.
  • #481
Antiphon said:
[...] Yhe global values are much higher. This blows the gulf spill out of the water if you will.
Not in the Gulf, in this single year it doesn't.
 
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  • #482
Scientists Fault U.S. Response in Assessing Gulf Oil Spill
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/20/science/earth/20noaa.html

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/05/20/science/earth/20noaa_graphic.html?ref=earth

Tensions between the Obama administration and the scientific community over the gulf oil spill are escalating, with prominent oceanographers accusing the government of failing to conduct an adequate scientific analysis of the damage and of allowing BP to obscure the spill’s true scope.

. . . .
Bear in mind that this is a newspaper/media article, and not a scientific article, so the language is not as clean and crisp as one might wish. The scientific community is certainly not monolithic, so it concerns me to read sentences that seem to offer sweeping generalizations or inclusions. But then this is a frequent issue in journalism, and in some PF discussions.

Nevertheless there is criticism of the government and BP with respect to minimizing the severity of the spill, it's consequences, and the methods to resolve this matter.

We need to realize that many statements are based on estimates, and the further one is from the scene, the greater the uncertainty.
 
  • #483
When I hear of methods to measure this spill and its impact directly, in our lifetimes, I will remove the "estimate" caveat. Trust will remain an issue, and as there is so much to be lost in so many arenas (financial, political, environmental) one must use the best estimates extant. To do otherwise is intellectually dishonest, and needlessly apologist for companies and a government that failed to plan, failed to act properly to avoid this foreseeable disaster (see previous pages for references), and is economically entangled. There is the oil, and there are the detergents, surfactants, and solvent being dumped and well.

Does anyone doubt that the US government will act to cover its ***, or that BP will act to preserve itself and shareholders? Environmentalists will spin this, making their assessments questionable, and in the ensuing dust-up fishermen will be hung to dry; lawsuits take TIME, as we've seen with Exxon.

Obama's administration is a major recipient of BP'a money, whereas the scientific community simply has less to gain or lose in terms of power and money. In short, it should not shock that given the restriction of information released, and the lack of access given, that we are left wondering. Science is slower than propaganda, but that does not mean we should ignore immediate estimates in favor of years of study that will take place while other interests spin and massage this event.

In a better and just world, MMS, BP, Administration officials involved, and more, would be mulched and used as oil sponges.
 
  • #484
Bad, bad, BAAAD news. Just released by BP, their siphon is taking 5000 bbl/day, and they know admit that the leak is much much larger than their estimate. What. A. Shock. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10133413.stm
compare to yesterday, when they believed they were only capturing 3000 bbl/day or a few days before when it was 1000 bbl/day.

I suppose we now have answers about relative honesty and/or competence.Also in the news, the EPA giveth a few hundred thousand gallons already used, and now it taketh away dispersant: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/20/gulf.oil.spill/index.html?hpt=T2

Fantastic, I'm sure that the mass already in the water column will have no ill effects.

It'a in the loop current now: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127012041

Here is BP 8 hours ago: http://www.onenewspage.com/news/World/20100520/11196917/BP-bows-to-demands-from-Congress-and-scientists.htm

Some more by Wereley, the "gadfly academic" who apparently was a hell of a lot closer to being right than anyone else. http://www.onenewspage.com/news/Business/20100520/11204809/Kevin-Grandia-Experts-Say-BP-Withholding-Valuable-Data.htm
 
  • #486
As of May 18:

NOAA and BP have stuck with the 5,000-barrel estimate, although Interior Secretary Ken Salazar said Tuesday the government is preparing new estimates.

Some scientists:

estimate the volume of oil spilling from the well as 25,000 to 80,000 barrels a day.

about which

More than half a dozen industry professionals who test wells flow and study oil formations were skeptical in interviews about estimates as high as 80,000 barrels a day, given the production rates of nearby deep water wells that yield 15,000 to 30,000 barrels a day.
“We work hard to maximize flow rates in deep-water wells and I don't know any well in the Gulf of Mexico that made that kind of rate,” said Stuart Filler, president of the Society of Petroleum Evaluation Engineers

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...n/7011584.html
 
  • #487
It seems that things are only getting worse. Is there ANY way to stop this leakage?

And where is there an incentive for BP to care? They will just raise prices to cover costs, having a net financial effect on them as zero.
 
  • #488
  • #489
BP's Own Numbers Prove Spill Greater Than Estimate
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127018709
May 20, 2010 For several weeks, BP clung to the federal government's estimate that 5,000 barrels a day were leaking in the Gulf, even though independent scientists sharply disputed that figure. Now, the company is capturing that amount of oil each day -- and there is plenty more still spilling into the Gulf. The Obama administration has given BP 48 hours to hand over all its data.
The 5000 bbl/day was based on estimates of what was reaching the surface. We have known for some time that more was dispersing under the surface.

According to BP, they are retrieving about 5000 bbl/day, but there is much more leaking out into the water.

NPR said:
. . . On Thursday afternoon, the video highlighted one leak, and there are two other breaks in the pipe spewing oil and gas. A scientist told Markey's committee Wednesday that one of those appears to be spewing out 25,000 barrels a day.

And yet, BP spokesman Mark Proegler still says the company has no idea how much oil and gas is coming out of the leaking pipe, which is known as a riser. . . .
 
  • #491
Astronuc found a some leak composition comments from a reporter (from PWB forum); I thought I'd explore the technical implications here:
Astronuc said:
I heard some discussion yesterday concerning Wereley's estimate.
[...]

Sizing Up The Oil Spill Hearings
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126985080
NPR said:
HARRIS (NPR): Wereley went on to say that his own figures could ultimately come down from where they are right now because remember, as we've been saying, this flow is both oil and gas, and BP gave us a figure that suggests the mixture is something like three parts of gas to one part of oil down at the ocean sea floor.
Harris is the NPR reporter making that statement about the mix that "BP gave us". That's the only news report on the composition I've seen so far. Would be nice if Harris could produce more details: Is that the volumetric ratio really on the ocean floor, or measured on the the surface? If on the ocean floor how could they know? Does the estimate exclude other fluids, esp. sea water+mud?

If that 3:1 ratio is correct, measured at the leak (?) then the PIV estimate of 70,000 bpd of petroleum implies total fluid leak of 280,000 bpd (11 million gallons), gas*+petroleum? That seems bizarrely high given the 30,000 bbd production of nearby working wells, http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...n/7011584.html" . Also 1.1x10^7 gpd is 18 cubic feet per second emerging from the pipe, of what diameter?

*gas pressure at 5000' down ~2500 PSI, so it's expanding ~170X upon reaching the surface?
 
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  • #492
mheslep said:
If that 3:1 ratio is correct, measured at the leak (?) then the PIV estimate of 70,000 bpd of petroleum implies total fluid leak of 280,000 bpd (11 million gallons), gas*+petroleum? That seems bizarrely high given the 30,000 bbd production of nearby working wells, http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...n/7011584.html" . Also 1.1x10^7 gpd is 18 cubic feet per second emerging from the pipe, of what diameter?
Remember that the nearby working wells have to pump the oil a mile vertically. Production rates metered at the rig are necessarily heavily influenced by head losses and fluid friction losses. This one is just ripped open at the well-head, and it appears that the reservoir is under some impressive pressure, at least until the natural gas peters out. So the volume comparison (working well to damaged well at the sea-bottom) has to be taken with a pretty big grain of salt.
 
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  • #493
First, a factual problem of the revisionist history variety to deal with:
mheslep said:
Meanwhile: 1) the only rate estimate I've seen coming from people with experience in marine oil and gas is BP's estimate.
Not picking on you specifically - everyone, including the media is calling the 5,000 bbl/day estimate "BP's estimate". The 5,000 bbl a day estimate is *not* BP's estimate, it is the US government's (Coast Guard/NOAA's) estimate. Some people want it to be BP's estimate so it is easier to claim it is a fabricated number based on bias or even lies (fraud, as claimed before). Now certainly BP would favor low estimates, but a BP bias didn't factor into the creation of that estimate and doesn't even need to factor into BP's usage of that number because that number is still the US government's favored estimate:
Salazar [Secretary of the Interior] said the best estimates are that 5,000 barrels a day are leaking into the Gulf...
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/20/gulf.oil.spill/index.html?hpt=T1

That said, people have alluded to but not thought through some clear "flaws" in the 5,000 bbl a day estimate. Let me finish the thought:

The NOAA/USCG estimate is based on surface measurements and is therefore not a leak measurement, but is rather a slick measurement. That's not a flaw it just means it is different from a measurement of the leak and cannot be taken to be a measurement of the leak. The media fed us that number as a "spill" measurement probably because they didn't think of the same issues we didn't initially think of:
1. Some fraction of the oil is not making it to the surface.
2. Some fraction of the oil is evaporating after reaching the surface.

But certainly the USCG/NOAA personnel who made the estimate wouldn't have made that mistake.

Note the Salazar paraphrase above uses the word "leak" - and this is why I prefer direct quotes to media paraphrases, because we don't really know if that word choice is accurate or is just sloppy journalism. If it is accurate, then I'd say it is all but certain the government has the size of the leak low because if the size of the slick is growing at 5,000 bbl a day, the size of the leak is probably several times larger. BP seems to be acknowledging this.

Now when playing the propaganda/blame game, it is important for anti-energy/anti-corporate people to jump on the highest possible estimate, so the 5,000 bbl a day estimate is characterized as "wrong" and Werely's estimates are "best". But the reality is that not only is there currently no reason to believe the estimate is wrong (within the context of the definition of the word "estimate", of course), but it is likely that the surface slick size is more relevant than the other three numbers (evaporated oil, oil remaining undersea, total). No doubt any proper report will discuss and attempt to pin down all four numbers, but the one that most directly affects ecological damage and cleanup that BP will be made to pay for and will affect residents of the Gulf coast most is the estimate of how big the slick is.

From the same article as above, he was making the talk show rounds with some new numbers yesterday morning:
Steve Wereley, a professor of mechanical engineering at Purdue University, told "American Morning" on Thursday the spill is much larger. He said the leak could be as high as 20,000 to 100,000 barrels a day.
Put into the same terms as his previous estimate, that's 60,000 +-67%. His estimate got slightly larger, but his uncertainty got vastly larger. My confidence level in that estimate was never very high due to immediate instinctive red-flags about how one could use a low-quality video clip to make such an estimate. This only increases my skepticism. But hey: I'm a capitalist, so I didn't fault BP for downplaying the leak size earlier for financial reasons and I don't blame Werely for getting his 15 minutes, while the getting is good, either. I do, however, blame the media for promoting Werely and not doing their homework on him and his estimates. It's kinda funny: reporters are supposed to get three independent confirmations of a fact before printing it, but one "expert" says something provocative and all of the sudden, its gosphel. If they were doing their jobs, they'd get themselves two more experts to make the same measurements and/or comment on the methodology Werely is using.
 
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  • #494
mheslep said:
2) I have yet to see a description that makes any logical sense as to how particle flow measurements from a passive video can even begin estimate what is coming out of that pipe.
Agreed. I've done a fair bit of research on Wereley's method and it bears only passing resemblance to what he's saying he did for the gulf spill. The differences appear to me to be pretty major:

1. Low-speed photography, using a standard camera.
2. Poor light source (no laser or strobe light).
3. Opaque fluid.
4. No pre-selected, suspended particles.
5. No specialized depth-of-field focusing.
6. Uncertain opening size (even if he got the size right, breaking-off a pipe can change the geometry of the outlet).
7. Unstable flow.
8. Uncertain and inconsistent mixture of liquid and gas.
9. Uncertain camera angle.
 
  • #495
russ_watters said:
First, a factual problem of the revisionist history variety to deal with: Not picking on you specifically - everyone, including the media is calling the 5,000 bbl/day estimate "BP's estimate". The 5,000 bbl a day estimate is *not* BP's estimate, it is the US government's (Coast Guard/NOAA's) estimate.
Yes, I've been sloppy - got it right (quoted) in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2726371&postcount=486"
 
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  • #496
IcedEcliptic said:
...whereas the scientific community simply has less to gain or lose in terms of power and money.
I would not make that assumption, particularly since one scientist isn't "the scientific community". Werely licenses his patents to corporations who make measurement equipment. There absolutely is a financial incentive for him to raise his profile.
In general I find this all amusing, as the majority of what this site is dedicated to is subject to FAR less "proof" and certainty than HD video of a leak. Theories and conclusions in various branches of physics and astronomy, cosmology, and medicine are based on less. If Pfizer released an estimate with no data that pharmaceutical X follows kinetics Y, we would scoff. If based on the only publicly available information was analyzed by independent experts who believe that in fact the pharmacokinetics are rather, P, Q, or R, then one would tend to believe that they are more reliable.
That is a clear misunderstanding of how science works and a baffling mischaracterization of the level of proof in science. Nowhere else on this forum would such loose science as these made-for-tv blurbs by Werely be acceptable for posting. They would immediately be deleted for violating our guidelines regarding the requirement that sources be peer reviewed, published (or official) sources. Wereley's blurbs are not scientific research quality information.
 
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  • #497
russ_watters said:
First, a factual problem of the revisionist history variety to deal with: Not picking on you specifically - everyone, including the media is calling the 5,000 bbl/day estimate "BP's estimate". The 5,000 bbl a day estimate is *not* BP's estimate, it is the US government's (Coast Guard/NOAA's) estimate. Some people want it to be BP's estimate so it is easier to claim it is a fabricated number based on bias or even lies (fraud, as claimed before). Now certainly BP would favor low estimates, but a BP bias didn't factor into the creation of that estimate and doesn't even need to factor into BP's usage of that number because that number is still the US government's favored estimate:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/20/gulf.oil.spill/index.html?hpt=T1

That said, people have alluded to but not thought through some clear "flaws" in the 5,000 bbl a day estimate. Let me finish the thought:

The NOAA/USCG estimate is based on surface measurements and is therefore not a leak measurement, but is rather a slick measurement. That's not a flaw it just means it is different from a measurement of the leak and cannot be taken to be a measurement of the leak. The media fed us that number as a "spill" measurement probably because they didn't think of the same issues we didn't initially think of:
1. Some fraction of the oil is not making it to the surface.
2. Some fraction of the oil is evaporating after reaching the surface.

But certainly the USCG/NOAA personnel who made the estimate wouldn't have made that mistake.

Note the Salazar paraphrase above uses the word "leak" - and this is why I prefer direct quotes to media paraphrases, because we don't really know if that word choice is accurate or is just sloppy journalism. If it is accurate, then I'd say odds are good the government has the size of the leak low because if the size of the slick is growing at 5,000 bbl a day, the size of the leak is probably several times larger.

Now when playing the propaganda/blame game, it is important for anti-energy/anti-corporate people to jump on the highest possible estimate, so the 5,000 bbl a day estimate is characterized as "wrong" and Werely's estimates are "best". But the reality is that not only is there currently no reason to believe the estimate is wrong (within the context of the definition of the word "estimate", of course), but it is likely that the surface slick size is more relevant than the other three numbers (evaporated oil, oil remaining undersea, total). No doubt any proper report will discuss and attempt to pin down all four numbers, but the one that most directly affects ecological damage and cleanup that BP will be made to pay for and will affect residents of the Gulf coast most is the estimate of how big the slick is.

From the same article as above, he was making the talk show rounds with some new numbers this morning: Put into the same terms as his previous estimate, that's 60,000 +-67%. His estimate got slightly larger, but his uncertainty got vastly larger. My confidence level in that estimate was never very high due to immediate instinctive red-flags about how one could use a low-quality video clip to make such an estimate. This only increases my skepticism. But hey: I'm a capitalist, so I didn't fault BP for downplaying the leak size earlier for financial reasons and I don't blame Werely for getting his 15 minutes, while the getting is good, either. I do, however, blame the media for promoting Werely and not doing their homework on him and his estimates. It's kinda funny: reporters are supposed to get three independent confirmations of a fact before printing it, but one "expert" says something provocative and all of the sudden, its gosphel. If they were doing their jobs, they'd get themselves two more experts to make the same measurements and/or comment on the methodology Werely is using.

Of all those involved, BP is like a shark, it does what you expect according to its nature. The MMS and politicians who only now find the ability to whine after allowing this to proceed for money's sake are the villains in this piece, if one wished to frame it in those terms.

Personally, who to blame is not something I care about, I am simply aghast at the massive use of toxic dispersants, and the environmental and economic impact. Who is at fault only matters in a world where justice can be done, and this is not that world. Reducing an environmental, personal, and economic catastrophe to a game of who did what and when is a distraction from the real issue.

That said, your views on Wereley who as Astronuc pointed out is already accomplished and published, has a far lesser stake in this than BP, and the various US agencies who are failing in their job. Your pondering is a bit of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, but then why discuss substance when we can speculate on speculations, denigrate the character of an academic you do not know, and simply "go limp" on the issue of ramifications as one is lost in the details of measurement.

For someone who is so laissez faire in their capitalism, you spend a great deal of time nitpicking media reports, and virtually none on the issue at hand: the safety of an endeavor for which reliable means of fail-safes were not developed. We get the notion of politics and blame, how about more in the realm of cogent discussion of the safety of offshore drilling at this depth, given the facts: a large leak, 600K gallons of toxic dispersant, and more? This isn't the "spin control" thread.
 
  • #499
russ_watters said:
I would not make that assumption, particularly since one scientist isn't "the scientific community". Werely licenses his patents to corporations who make measurement equipment. There absolutely is a financial incentive for him to raise his profile.

He has already been wildly successful, with a co-author credits on the book of PIV (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3540723072/?tag=pfamazon01-20), and two widely used patents, and an associate professorship. If he is right, he may get more business, but he is exposing himself to being VERY wrong, and critique from such as you, which on balance seems to be a bad trade. BP and the US Government stand to gain a great deal by delaying and massaging data however, or as you pointed out, by simply NOT doing the proper study.

I wonder, if Wereley's estimate is finally confirmed, will you believe that it was just a lucky guess? :rolleyes:
 
  • #500
turbo-1 said:
Remember that the nearby working wells have to pump the oil a mile vertically. Production rates metered at the rig are necessarily heavily influenced by head losses and fluid friction losses. This one is just ripped open at the well-head, and it appears that the reservoir is under some impressive pressure, at least until the natural gas peters out. So the volume comparison (working well to damaged well at the sea-bottom) has to be taken with a pretty big grain of salt.
I believe the loss would be solely due to the fluid friction from the pipe. The 2500 PSI of ocean on the floor sees to it that the oil gets to the surface. Also I'm suspect that petroleum engineers understand the difference between surface and ocean floor flows.
More than half a dozen industry professionals who test wells flow and study oil formations were skeptical in interviews about estimates as high as 80,000 barrels a day, given the production rates of nearby deep water wells that yield 15,000 to 30,000 barrels a day.
“We work hard to maximize flow rates in deep-water wells and I don't know any well in the Gulf of Mexico that made that kind of rate,” said Stuart Filler, president of the Society of Petroleum Evaluation Engineers
 
  • #501
mheslep said:
I believe the loss would be solely due to the fluid friction from the pipe. The 2500 PSI of ocean on the floor sees to it that the oil gets to the surface. Also I'm suspect that petroleum engineers understand the difference between surface and ocean floor flows.

They have failed to give a single explanation for the plumes, so... cite?
 
  • #503
IcedEcliptic said:
They have failed to give a single explanation for the plumes, so... cite?
Eh? Cite what?
 
  • #504
mheslep said:
I believe the loss would be solely due to the fluid friction from the pipe. The 2500 PSI of ocean on the floor sees to it that the oil gets to the surface. Also I'm suspect that petroleum engineers understand the difference between surface and ocean floor flows.
You have a mile of head loss to contend with combined with friction between the viscous oil and the pipe wall. If you believe that oil rigs don't have to use pumps to bring the oil to the surface, I'd like to see you come up with some examples.

BTW, petroleum engineers certainly DO understand the difference, but they have a vested interest in minimizing the public's perception of the possible flow-rate of the spill. Their use of flow-rates from producing wells to cite a maximum possible flow-rate from this wide-open well-head is disingenuous, IMO. I'd like to see engineers like Wereley and the Woods Hole staff get their hands on raw data that BP is sitting on.
 
  • #505
mheslep said:
Eh? Cite what?


Your suspicions and beliefs outlined in the preceding quote.
 
  • #507
turbo-1 said:
You have a mile of head loss to contend with combined with friction between the viscous oil and the pipe wall. If you believe that oil rigs don't have to use pumps to bring the oil to the surface, I'd like to see you come up with some examples.
Well I'm assuming the floor ocean pressure can be applied, either via pressing on the buried reservoir or other means. In that case, absent force to overcome viscous friction I grant is present, raising the fluid requires no external head pressure to rise all the way up the pipe just to the surface. At that point, the pump head required is the same as pumping from the surface at the desired rate, again neglecting the viscous friction from the pipe.

BTW, petroleum engineers certainly DO understand the difference, but they have a vested interest in minimizing the public's perception of the possible flow-rate of the spill. Their use of flow-rates from producing wells to cite a maximum possible flow-rate from this wide-open well-head is disingenuous, IMO. I'd like to see engineers like Wereley and the Woods Hole staff get their hands on raw data that BP is sitting on.
Yes everybody has a vested interest. Some of these petrol engineers might well like to see a competitor (BP) removed from the Gulf, who knows; we can play the motivation game forever. Wereley is not a petroleum or chemical engineer. Put his PIV technique in the hands of petrol/chemical engineer that knows something about spills, then I'm interested.
 
  • #508
IcedEcliptic said:
Your suspicions and beliefs outlined in the preceding quote.
Meaning this?

Also I'm suspect that petroleum engineers understand the difference between surface and ocean floor flows.
I.e., I suspect they understand fluid mechanics.
 
  • #509
mheslep said:
Meaning this?

I.e., I suspect they understand fluid mechanics.

Agreed, but nothing I've seen shows an accurate breakdown of the effluent. Are they capturing oil, and only a LITTLE is escaping, lofted by NG, or is 5000 bbl in a day a straight fraction of the total crude? If you don't know the composition of the fluid, or understand the role of pressure and temperature on the mechanics, then I wonder.
 
  • #510
IcedEcliptic said:
A peer-reviewed group will measure flow.
Can you post the link to that so the rest of us can read what you are referring to?

Thanks.
 

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