Is space warped, or is matter expanding?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of space and matter, specifically whether space is warped by the presence of mass or if matter itself is expanding. Participants explore concepts related to gravity, the second law of thermodynamics, and the relationship between matter and energy, engaging in both theoretical and conceptual reasoning.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the concept of warped space, suggesting it might be more intuitive to think of matter expanding outwards in the presence of space.
  • Another participant explains that the idea of bending space comes from observations of light bending around massive objects, which is a consequence of relativity.
  • There is a claim that matter should expand due to the second law of thermodynamics, as it seeks equilibrium.
  • One participant proposes that whether matter expands or space is warped, the effects could be fundamentally similar, with gravity resulting from the expansion of matter.
  • There is a discussion about the distinction between matter and energy, with some participants asserting that they are not the same, despite the duality principle.
  • A later reply challenges the clarity of the discussion, expressing confusion about the concepts being debated.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether space is warped or if matter is expanding, with no consensus reached. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the second law of thermodynamics and concepts from quantum mechanics, but there are unresolved assumptions and definitions regarding the nature of matter and energy, as well as the implications of space expansion versus matter expansion.

Modman
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Why do physicists say that space is warped in with the presence of mass? Wasn't the whole concept of spatial coordinates supposed to make measuring distance easier? I think it would be easier to say that matter expands outwards in the presence of space.

Also, because of the second law of thermodynamics, and since matter IS energy, would it not be logical to say that matter must continue to expand outwards until it touches other matter? Is this what we call gravity?

BTW this isn't my idea, but I think it's an awesome idea but I need someone to verify the thinking is correct.
 
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Hi there,

The idea of a bending space comes from light observation. It has been thought for very long that light travels in a straight line. Just need to point a laser, and see that it does travel straight.

Thanks to relativity (this Einstein dude had something), we know now that light bends when passing near matter. Of course this is visible when light, coming from far away objects) passes near a very massive object (massive star). Therefore, trying to explain this, scientist came up with the idea of warped space.

They imagine that light follows the Universe curvature. In a flat Universe, light would travel in a straight line. Putting some massive object in this flat universe bends its curvature, forcing light to follow it.

As for the second part of your comment: matter is not energy and vice-versa. Matter can be transformed to energy. There is the duality principle. But one is not the other.
 
But due to the second law of thermodynamics, matter should still expand, correct? It is trying to reach equilibrium.
 
Modman said:
Why do physicists say that space is warped in with the presence of mass? Wasn't the whole concept of spatial coordinates supposed to make measuring distance easier? I think it would be easier to say that matter expands outwards in the presence of space.

I'm not sure you get the ideas going around. It is space itself that is expanding, rather than matter expanding into empty void.
 
What I'm trying to say is that it should be fundamentally the same, if matter is expanding or if space is warped. However, if matter is expanding, it is the expansion that causes gravity. When two particles grow at the same rate, the space between them decreases by a square root, the same as in Newton's gravity equations. This is what I am proposing.
 
fatra2 said:
As for the second part of your comment: matter is not energy and vice-versa. Matter can be transformed to energy. There is the duality principle. But one is not the other.

...then what is matter? If quantum mechanics considers particle-wave duality, how would you describe the difference between matter and energy?
 

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