Is the Graviton Necessary for Gravity in Light of Higgs Field Discoveries?

[Mordred]

After the Cern discovery supporting the Higgs field Which is something I have little familiarity with. Due mainly to fourm opinions not necessarily this one that had discounted anything Higgs related.
I started wondering if we do need a graviton to be the force carrier of gravity in the standard model.
For example a larger mass hence a larger concentration of Higgs bosons/field could be used to represent the amount of gravity influence or could it?

Hopefully I am not out on left wing on that thought.

I've always had trouble thinking of gravity as a force even though its accepted as one but that's another topic.

 

[atyy]

The graviton has spin 2, but the Higgs has spin 0. A theory with spin 0 graviton was formulated by Nordstrom, but it turns out to disagree with the perihelion precession of mercury.

 

[Parlyne]

If gravity were somehow a result of the Higgs, light would be totally unaffected by gravity, since the Higgs does not couple at all to photons. The trouble is one of the very first pieces of corroborating evidence for GR was the deflection of starlight by the sun as observed during a solar eclipse. (And, since then, there's plenty of other evidence for such gravitational lensing effects.)

Also, most of the mass in ordinary matter actually comes from the strong force, meaning that we would see a large discrepancy between inertial and gravitational effects.

 

[Mordred]

Thanks for the replies. Ihad not considered the spins of the 2 particles.
I also didnt know that the strong force was responsible for most of the mass.
If anyone has good articles with the mathematics included on the Higgs I would appreciate it

 

[Naty1]

Gravity is not yet part of the Standard Model of particle physics.

From MarkM in another thread:

: The weak force is mediated by three massive particles, called the W+, W-, and Z bosons. One important aspect of the Standard Model is electroweak symmetry - at a sufficiently high temperature (at a time immediately after the big bang), the weak force becomes indiscernible from the electromagnetic force. This means that the W and Z bosons were initially massless. Breaking this symmetry is the job of the Higgs field. ... One way a massless particle could gain mass is by the absorption of a scalar (spin 0) particle as its longitudional mode (as it's second degree of freedom).

A scalar particle that does this is called a Nambu-Goldstone boson.

 

[Mordred]

Judging from the replies I suggest this thread should be moved to a more suitable forum. Thanks for the replies so far I definitely need a better understanding on the Higgs

 

[Naty1]

yes, Higgs seems a VERY mathematical entity. Yet somebody think they have confirmed it via experimental observation.

I am still collecting explanations trying to understand it more fully. It is also stuck in as a component of the inflation model of cosmology, and if you read this post of mine from today, Post #17,

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=659756&page=2

you'll see Roger Penrose has his own doubts about such an approach. [He seems a rather skeptical guy.]

Apparently the Higgs field can be utilized [it exists] when the vacuum field has a
vacuum expectation value...apparently the Casimir effect demonstrates this...at least to some, but I have read of doubts as well. The Casimir effect is, I believe, an observable, but the exact cause seems doubtful to some.

What I do not like, if it is accurate, if it is true, every time you have a new particle, a new mass, you need a new Higgs. Isn't that a bit artificial?

 

[haael]

Actually a very tiny percent of nucleon mass comes from the presence of Higgs. Most of the mass (and hence gravity) of a nucleon comes from the binding energy. What Higgs does is differing the masses of proton and neutron. A proton is lighter, so it is stable. If Higgs operated differently, proton would be unstable and would decay into a neutron, positon and a neutrino.

So - Higgs has very little to do with gravity at the first glance. It rather explains decay chains than anything gravity-related.

 

[Mordred]

Several posters have managed to point out how much I need to learn with regatds to Higgs in general.

I would greatly appreciate any non multi media articles explianing how the Higgs boson compares to other particles in the standard model. As well as the mathematics and theorum in the amount of mass and influence in our early universe

 

[Bill_K]

What I do not like, if it is accurate, if it is true, every time you have a new particle, a new mass, you need a new Higgs. Isn't that a bit artificial?

No, no, in the Standard Model there is only one Higgs field and only one Higgs boson. The mass of a fermion is m = vC, where v is the magnitude of the Higgs field (the same for everybody) and C is a coupling constant (different for different fermions). The origin and values of C are "BSM" physics, unexplained by the present model.

 

[Naty1]

What I do not like, if it is accurate, if it is true, every time you have a new particle, a new mass, you need a new Higgs. Isn't that a bit artificial?
No, no, in the Standard Model there is only one Higgs field and only one Higgs boson.

Seems everybody agrees on the Standard Model...one Higgs field

My poorly worded question/comment referred to the initial, inflationary spontaneous symmetry breaking period...

 

[Naty1]

I would greatly appreciate any non multi media articles explianing how the Higgs boson compares to other particles in the standard model. As well as the mathematics and theorum in the amount of mass and influence in our early universe

Although no math, Brian Greene in FABRIC OF THE COSMOS has some insightful explanations of early universe Higgs fields in Chapters 9 and 10.
And more about the Standard model later in the book.

For example, one interesting insight relating to string theory: [pg 373]

..recall...that the Higgs field takes on a non zero value throughout all of space...If a huge collections of strings all vibrate in just the right coordfinated way throughout all of space, they can provide a uniform background that for all intents and purposes would be indistinguishable from a Higgs ocean...

You can probably buy a used copy cheap online...that's what I did...

 

[Mordred]

Thanks Naty1 Ill look for a copy