Is the Higgs field in its present form phlogiston-like?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the comparison of the Higgs field and Higgs mechanism to the historical concept of phlogiston, questioning the validity and nature of the Higgs field in its current form. Participants explore theoretical implications, the potential for alternative theories, and the status of the Higgs field within the framework of the Standard Model.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants draw parallels between the Higgs field and phlogiston, suggesting that the Higgs field could also be proven imaginary in the future.
  • There is speculation about the possibility of a correct theory that could reproduce current results without relying on the Higgs field, indicating uncertainty about its validity.
  • One participant argues that if the "normal" Higgs field is considered real, it would lead to different interpretations of particles, suggesting a complex relationship between the Higgs mechanism and particle physics.
  • Another participant posits that even if the Higgs mechanism is incorrect, the existence of a scalar particle is still required by nature, indicating a potential necessity for some form of the Higgs field.
  • Concerns are raised about the criteria for labeling the Higgs field as "strange," questioning the relevance of such notions in scientific discourse.
  • Some participants suggest that the discussion may not belong in its current subforum, given that the Higgs boson has been experimentally confirmed and is part of the Standard Model.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity and implications of the Higgs field and mechanism, with no consensus reached on whether it is analogous to phlogiston or if it remains a valid component of modern physics.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the historical context of scientific theories and the potential for future theories to emerge, indicating that the discussion is limited by current understanding and definitions of the Higgs field and mechanism.

Prishon
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Phlogiston lead to the discovery of oxygen but was later on proven to be imaginary. Can the same be said of the quite strange Higgs field and Higgs mechanism following from the strange Mexican hat potential? Is that potential just imaginary? It lead to the discovery of the eponimous particle, true. But what about the Higgs field (in its present form) and the Higgs mechanism?
 
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Could we think we're right but actually be wrong, with the correct theory - which nobody has even imagined yet - reproducing all the results of the present incorrect theory?

I guess.
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
Could we think we're right but actually be wrong, with the correct theory - which nobody has even imagined yet - reproducing all the results of the present incorrect theory?

I guess.
In this case I think not. If you consider the "normal" Higgs field (with normal potential energy values for all field configurations) as real there will not result the non-existing Higgs mechanism. It will lead to different interpretations of the Higgs particles and quarks/leptons (and possibly W/Z particles). But history went differently.
 
Vanadium 50 said:
Could we think we're right but actually be wrong, with the correct theory - which nobody has even imagined yet - reproducing all the results of the present incorrect theory?

I guess.
Including solving the non-unitarity of collissions including W-bosons by the degrees of of freedom left in the Higgs field after the spontaneous symmetry breaking in the guise of a scalar particle.

So even if the Higgs mechanism is wrong, Nature still demands a scalar particle.
 
Prishon said:
Phlogiston lead to the discovery of oxygen but was later on proven to be imaginary. Can the same be said of the quite strange Higgs field...
According to which criteria is this "strange"? Why would Nature care about the notion of strangeness of some apes who evolved mainly to eat, beat and reproduce?
 
Besides, since Higgs boson has been experimentally found, and Higgs field and Higgs mechanism in its present form are considered to be a part of the Standard Model, not some "beyond" models, shouldn't this thread be moved to another subforum?
 
weirdoguy said:
shouldn't this thread be moved to another subforum?

This thread should be closed. The OP doesn't like a minus sign in the Lagrangian. I don't like Brussels sprouts.
 
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