Is the Kernel of Trace Equal to the $F$-Subspace of $V_\sigma$?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of the subspace \( V_{\sigma} \) defined in the context of a finite Galois extension \( K/F \) and its relation to the kernel of the trace function \( \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F} \). Participants explore whether \( V_{\sigma} \) is an \( F \)-subspace of \( \ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F} \), the isomorphism between \( K/\mathcal{F}(\langle \sigma \rangle) \) and \( V_{\sigma} \), and the conditions under which \( \ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F} = V_{\sigma} \) holds.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that \( V_{\sigma} \) contains \( 0 \) because the Galois group acts transitively on the roots of an irreducible polynomial.
  • There is a question about the meaning of \( \sigma^i \) and whether it refers to a power, with some participants noting that it is not given that \( G \) is cyclic.
  • Concerns are raised regarding whether \( \lambda \) must belong to \( F \) for \( V_{\sigma} \) to be an \( F \)-subspace.
  • Participants discuss the closure properties of \( V_{\sigma} \) under addition and scalar multiplication, questioning if it is indeed a subset of \( \ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F} \).
  • One participant proposes that to show \( V_{\sigma} = \ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F} \), it is necessary to demonstrate that their dimensions are equal and that \( G = \langle \sigma \rangle \).
  • Another participant suggests that the trace of an element in \( V_{\sigma} \) should always yield zero, leading to a discussion on the implications of this for the kernel.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the properties of \( V_{\sigma} \) and its relationship to \( \ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F} \). There is no consensus on whether \( V_{\sigma} \) is definitively an \( F \)-subspace of \( \ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F} \), and multiple viewpoints regarding the necessary conditions and implications remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their understanding of the definitions and properties involved, particularly regarding the Galois group and the trace function. The discussion reflects a need for clarity on the relationships between dimensions and the structure of the involved spaces.

mathmari
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Hey! :o

Let $K/F$ be a finite Galois extension and let $G= \operatorname{Gal}(K/F)$.

  1. For each $\sigma\in G$ we define $V_{\sigma}=\{\sigma (b)-b:b\in K\}$. Show that $V_{\sigma}$ is $F$-subspace of $\ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F}$.
  2. Show that $K/\mathcal{F} (\langle \sigma \rangle) \cong V_{\sigma}$ (isomorphic as $F$-linear spaces).
  3. Show that $\ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F}=V_{\sigma} \ \iff \ G=\langle \sigma \rangle$.
I have done the following:

    • $V_{\sigma}$ must contain $0$ :

      The Galois group acts transitively on the roots of an irreducible polynomial. We have that $\sigma^i(b)=b$, so $\sigma^i(b)-b=b-b=0$, so $0\in V_{\sigma}$.

      $$$$
    • $V_{\sigma}$ must be closed under addition:

      $\left (\sigma(a)-a\right )+\left (\sigma(b)-b\right )=[\sigma(a)+\sigma(b)]-[a+b]=\sigma(a+b)-(a+b)\in V_{\sigma}$

      $$$$
    • $V_{\sigma}$ must be closed under scalar multiplication:

      Let $\lambda\in \ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F}$ and $\sigma(b)-b \in V_{\sigma}$, we have that $\lambda \cdot \left (\sigma(b)-b\right )=\lambda \sigma(b)-\lambda b=\sigma(\lambda b)-(\lambda b)\in V_{\sigma}$.

    Do we conclude in that way that $V_{\sigma}$ is $F$-subspace of $\ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F}$ ? (Wondering)

    $$$$
  1. I have shown that $K/\mathcal{F} (\langle \sigma \rangle)$ is isomorphic to $V_{\sigma}$. $\checkmark$

    $$$$
  2. Do we have to show at the one direction that $\ker Tr_{K/F}$ and $V_{\sigma} $ have the same dimension? (Wondering)
 
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$\DeclareMathOperator{Tr}{Tr}$
mathmari said:
Let $K/F$ be a finite Galois extension and let $G= \operatorname{Gal}(K/F)$.

  1. For each $\sigma\in G$ we define $V_{\sigma}=\{\sigma (b)-b:b\in K\}$. Show that $V_{\sigma}$ is $F$-subspace of $\ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F}$.

I have done the following:
  • $V_{\sigma}$ must contain $0$ :

    The Galois group acts transitively on the roots of an irreducible polynomial. We have that $\sigma^i(b)=b$, so $\sigma^i(b)-b=b-b=0$, so $0\in V_{\sigma}$.

Hey mathmari! (Wave)

What do you mean that 'the Galois group acts transitively on the roots of an irreducible polynomial'?
What is $\sigma^i$? Is it a power? It is not given that $G$ is cyclic is it? :confused:

We do have that $0\in K$, so that $\sigma(0)-0=0\in V_\sigma$ for any $\sigma\in G$, don't we? (Thinking)
mathmari said:
  • $V_{\sigma}$ must be closed under addition:

    $\left (\sigma(a)-a\right )+\left (\sigma(b)-b\right )=[\sigma(a)+\sigma(b)]-[a+b]=\sigma(a+b)-(a+b)\in V_{\sigma}$
  • $V_{\sigma}$ must be closed under scalar multiplication:

    Let $\lambda\in \ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F}$ and $\sigma(b)-b \in V_{\sigma}$, we have that $\lambda \cdot \left (\sigma(b)-b\right )=\lambda \sigma(b)-\lambda b=\sigma(\lambda b)-(\lambda b)\in V_{\sigma}$.

Shouldn't we have $\lambda \in F$ if we want $V_\sigma$ to be an $F$-subspace? (Wondering)

mathmari said:
Do we conclude in that way that $V_{\sigma}$ is $F$-subspace of $\ker \operatorname{Tr}_{K/F}$ ?

A subspace must also be a subset of the space mustn't it?

Is $V_\sigma \subseteq \ker\Tr_{K/F}$? (Wondering)
 
$\DeclareMathOperator{Tr}{Tr}$
Klaas van Aarsen said:
What do you mean that 'the Galois group acts transitively on the roots of an irreducible polynomial'?

I mean that an element of the Galois group maps a root of an irreducible polynomial to an other root. Is this not correct? (Wondering)
Klaas van Aarsen said:
What is $\sigma^i$? Is it a power? It is not given that $G$ is cyclic is it? :confused:

Yes, I mean a power. So, the way I am thinking is not correct here, is it? (Wondering)
Klaas van Aarsen said:
We do have that $0\in K$, so that $\sigma(0)-0=0\in V_\sigma$ for any $\sigma\in G$, don't we? (Thinking)

Ahh yes (Malthe)
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Shouldn't we have $\lambda \in F$ if we want $V_\sigma$ to be an $F$-subspace? (Wondering)

Ahh ok. If we take $\lambda \in F$ is the remaining part correct as I did it? (Wondering)
Klaas van Aarsen said:
A subspace must also be a subset of the space mustn't it?

Is $V_\sigma \subseteq \ker\Tr_{K/F}$? (Wondering)

So we have that $\dim V_\sigma \leq \dim \ker\Tr_{K/F}$. To show that $V_\sigma = \ker\Tr_{K/F} \iff G=\langle \sigma\rangle$ we have to show that $\dim V_\sigma = \dim \ker\Tr_{K/F} \iff G=\langle \sigma\rangle$, or not?

From the second question we have that $V_{\sigma}\cong K/\mathcal{F} (\langle \sigma \rangle) $. From that we get \begin{equation*}\dim V_{\sigma}=\dim \left (K/\mathcal{F} (\langle \sigma \rangle)\right ) \Rightarrow \dim V_{\sigma}=\dim K -\dim\mathcal{F} (\langle \sigma \rangle) \end{equation*}
So we want to show that \begin{equation*}\dim \ker\Tr_{K/F}=\dim K -\dim\mathcal{F} (\langle \sigma \rangle)\Leftrightarrow G=\langle \sigma\rangle\end{equation*}

Let $[K:F]=n$. Does this mean that $\dim K=n$ ? Which is the dimension of the kernel? (Wondering)
 
mathmari said:
I mean that an element of the Galois group maps a root of an irreducible polynomial to an other root. Is this not correct?

Yes, I mean a power. So, the way I am thinking is not correct here, is it?

$\DeclareMathOperator{Tr}{Tr}\DeclareMathOperator{id}{id}$Yes, a root is mapped to a root.
$\sigma^i$ does not necessarily iterate through all the roots though.
For instance $\sigma=\id$ doesn't. $\id$ doesn't even map to 'another' root.

To verify that $0\in V_\sigma$ we want to find an element $b$ such that $\sigma(b)-b=0$.

As yet I don't see how $\sigma^i$ can help us.
$\sigma^i(b)-b$ is not necessarily an element of $V_\sigma$ is it?
After all, it it not of the form $\sigma(b)-b$. (Nerd)

mathmari said:
Ahh ok. If we take $\lambda \in F$ is the remaining part correct as I did it?

Yep. (Nod)

mathmari said:
So we have that $\dim V_\sigma \leq \dim \ker\Tr_{K/F}$. To show that $V_\sigma = \ker\Tr_{K/F} \iff G=\langle \sigma\rangle$ we have to show that $\dim V_\sigma = \dim \ker\Tr_{K/F} \iff G=\langle \sigma\rangle$, or not?

From the second question we have that $V_{\sigma}\cong K/\mathcal{F} (\langle \sigma \rangle) $. From that we get \begin{equation*}\dim V_{\sigma}=\dim \left (K/\mathcal{F} (\langle \sigma \rangle)\right ) \Rightarrow \dim V_{\sigma}=\dim K -\dim\mathcal{F} (\langle \sigma \rangle) \end{equation*}
So we want to show that \begin{equation*}\dim \ker\Tr_{K/F}=\dim K -\dim\mathcal{F} (\langle \sigma \rangle)\Leftrightarrow G=\langle \sigma\rangle\end{equation*}

Let $[K:F]=n$. Does this mean that $\dim K=n$ ? Which is the dimension of the kernel?

Not so fast. I think we first need to complete the first question. (Worried)
You have proven that $V_\sigma$ is a subspace of $K/F$, but we don't have any relation to $\ker\Tr_{K/F}$ yet, do we?
The dimensions only become relevant if $V_\sigma \subseteq \ker\Tr_{K/F}$.
That is the last part we need to prove that $V_\sigma$ is an $F$-subspace of $\ker\Tr_{K/F}$.

What does it mean that an element is in $\ker\Tr_{K/F}$? (Wondering)
 
$\DeclareMathOperator{Tr}{Tr}$Don't we have that:
$$\Tr_{K/F}(\alpha)=\sum_{g\in G}g(\alpha)$$
(Thinking)If $x\in V_\sigma$, then there must be a $b\in K$ such that $x=\sigma(b)-b$ and:
$$\Tr_{K/F}(x)=\sum_{g\in G}g(\sigma(b)-b) = \sum_{g\in G}g(\sigma(b)) - \sum_{g\in G}\sigma(b) = \Tr(\sigma(b))-\Tr(b)$$
Since the trace is not dependent on the choice of the basis, this is always $0$ isn't it? (Thinking)
 

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