Is the octet rule, important to the atom?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relevance of the octet rule in the context of atomic behavior, particularly concerning the elements aluminum and phosphorus, and their roles in semiconductor applications. Participants explore how atoms may interact with electrons to achieve stable configurations and the implications for chemical bonding.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether an atom prioritizes achieving a full outer shell (octet) over maintaining a neutral charge, suggesting this may vary by element.
  • Another participant notes that the octet rule is primarily applicable to second-row atoms and that exceptions are common, indicating a need for caution in its application.
  • A participant describes silicon and germanium as group 14 elements that typically form covalent compounds, but expresses uncertainty about their behavior compared to aluminum and phosphorus.
  • There is a correction regarding the focus on aluminum and phosphorus instead of silicon and germanium, with an emphasis on their roles in semiconductor doping.
  • One participant explains that phosphorus can form four bonds with silicon atoms, contributing to conduction, while aluminum, having three valence electrons, creates holes in the structure.
  • Some participants express limited knowledge of chemistry, particularly in the context of descriptive or inorganic chemistry, which may affect their contributions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the application of the octet rule, with multiple views on its relevance and limitations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific behaviors of aluminum and phosphorus in semiconductor contexts.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge their varying levels of expertise in chemistry, which may influence the depth and accuracy of the claims made. The discussion also reflects a shift in focus from silicon and germanium to aluminum and phosphorus, indicating potential gaps in understanding the original question.

johann1301
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Can an atom "give away" or "steal from another" an electron AND become an ion just to "satisfy" the Octet rule?

Does an atom "prefer" to have 8 electrons in the outer shell MORE then it "wants" a neutral charge(not be an ion)?

I imagine this varies from element to element. The elements i am puzzled about is silicon (Si 14) and Germanium.(I don't know much chemistry, so be "nice")
 
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The octet rule is really only qualitatively meaningful for 2nd row atoms and for other reasons, halogens, beyond that, exceptions are extremely common and the rule should be applied with care.

I'm not much of a chemist so I can't comment on Silicon and Germanium specifically.
 
Last edited:
Silicon and germanium are both group 14 elements (right below carbon). So - speaking from a very simple (and naive) application of the octet rule - they'd have to give up or accept four electrons to have a full shell. As a result, they tend to form covalent compounds like carbon, although the likelihood of doing so decreases going from silicon to germanium (silicon, at least, will form siloxanes - silicon bonded to an oxygen and two organic groups - which can then polymerize). I know there is some organogermanium chemistry out there, but I'm not very familiar with it.

In general, though, the octet rule is kind of misleading. I at least wish they'd rename it the "octet guideline," since once you get to chemistry beyond the second row - which is where most of the periodic table resides - it's not that helpful.

As an aside...

Jorriss said:
I'm not much of a chemist so I can't comment on Silicon and Germanium specifically.

If I'm mistaking you for someone else on here, my apologies. But aren't you going to/in grad school for chemistry? If so, I'd say that qualifies you as a chemist.
 
Im so sorry, but i realize i got the elements wrong! I am actually wondering about Aluminum and Phosphorus. Sorry about that!

Im trying to understand semiconductors(in physics), and the answer to this would clear some things. Sorry for wasting time on Si an Germanium, This time I'm sure ;)

Silicon and germanium is often used as the conductors, but Aluminum and phosphorus is used as "dope" in the conductors. Thats why i asked about Silicon and germanium instead of what i meant to ask about; Aluminum and Phosphors.
 
Mike H said:
If I'm mistakin you for someone else on here, my apologies. But aren't you going to/in grad school for chemistry? If so, I'd say that qualifies you as a chemist.
That's me but I'll be doing physical chemistry. I don't have much descriptive/inorganic knowledge. I know very little of chemical reactions and such.
 
johann1301 said:
Im so sorry, but i realize i got the elements wrong! I am actually wondering about Aluminum and Phosphorus. Sorry about that!

Im trying to understand semiconductors(in physics), and the answer to this would clear some things. Sorry for wasting time on Si an Germanium, This time I'm sure ;)

Silicon and germanium is often used as the conductors, but Aluminum and phosphorus is used as "dope" in the conductors. Thats why i asked about Silicon and germanium instead of what i meant to ask about; Aluminum and Phosphors.

The standard explanation is that if you - for example - substitute in phosphorus for silicon, phosphorus will make four bonds to four silicon atoms, and the remaining electron will be available for conduction. Conversely, if you substitute in aluminum for silicon, the aluminum will leave a hole since it only has three valence electrons to work with, in contrast to the four that silicon has available. For dealing with semiconductors (or solids of any sort), you're not really looking at individual atoms since these things are delocalized, and you're mostly interested in the band structure and how a donor or acceptor changes that band structure.

Jorriss said:
That's me but I'll be doing physical chemistry. I don't have much descriptive/inorganic knowledge. I know very little of chemical reactions and such.

Ahh, OK. I was just thrown for a moment there. It will, however, spare you from the joining the list of people who publish some new reaction and then never seem to follow it up with a proper mechanism paper. It's oh so irritating when I read a paper that promises such a follow-up, but never seems to deliver. Heh.
 

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