Is the 'Randomness' of Evolution Really Random?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of randomness in evolution, specifically questioning how random mutations can lead to adaptive traits and whether the mechanisms of evolution itself can evolve to favor certain types of mutations. Participants explore the implications of mutation patterns and natural selection in the context of evolutionary biology.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that while mutations are random, the process of evolution may itself evolve to favor traits that enhance adaptability in specific environments.
  • Others argue that error-prone patterns in DNA could accelerate evolution by increasing the likelihood of beneficial mutations, even if these patterns do not confer immediate adaptive advantages at the individual level.
  • A participant introduces the Gaia Hypothesis, suggesting that life forms can transform their environments, which may influence evolutionary processes.
  • One viewpoint emphasizes that natural selection can only act on traits that provide individual benefits, raising questions about how certain evolutionary mechanisms could arise without direct selection pressure.
  • Another participant uses retroviruses as an example, noting that their high mutation rates can be advantageous for rapid adaptation, despite the lack of individual-level benefits from error-prone replication mechanisms.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about how evolutionary mechanisms that favor constructive mutations could develop without direct selection, highlighting the complexity of the relationship between mutation and natural selection.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that mutations are random and that natural selection plays a crucial role in evolution. However, there is significant disagreement regarding how evolutionary processes can evolve to favor certain types of mutations and whether traits that enhance mutation rates can be selected for, leading to an unresolved discussion on these points.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of evolutionary mechanisms and the potential for misunderstandings regarding the role of randomness and natural selection. There are limitations in the assumptions made about the relationship between individual and group benefits in the context of evolutionary traits.

  • #61
Drakkith said:
I stand by what I said previously, and I think you're just making stuff up now.

You are partially correct. These are predictions based on decades of studying and pondering hydrogen bonding and water and how these interface to biomaterials. This aqueous side of life is not taught so I try to teach it.

For example, there is a double helix of water within the DNA double helix, yet the DNA is rarely shown this way, in any textbook. The DNA will not work without it, yet this is ignored and never taught. I bet if textbooks showed the DNA with the water helixes, new questions would be raised and new doors would open.

I remember years ago wondering why some of the bases of DNA has more hydrogen bonding hydrogen than it used. It turned out these were ear marked for the water helixes.
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  • #62
Just having "another way to look at the same things" does not mean that makes any sense.
If you have some new way of explaining things you want someone else to take interest in, you should show:
  • how it explains things that are not explained well
  • show its is still compatible with other unchallenged concepts in the field
You are not doing this.
You also seem to have zero support (based upon you inability to find any thing published anywhere that supports your claims).

This stuff is getting really confused:
Wellwisher said:
Rather the brain can control the aqueous environment outside the cells, thereby impacting their internal aqueous equilibrium. When cell cycles happen the membrane potential lowers due to ion reversal caused by the fluidity of the membrane.
Any control the brain might have on "the aqueous environment outside the cells" would be through controlling the water and ion flew in and out of the body. this is completely different from any membrane caused changes in ion content during cell division.

Wellwisher said:
The nerve connection will inhibit the cell cycle because the control cell’s membrane potential is held hostage. It can’t formed the correct internal aqueous equilibrium mode to replicate freely.
This is your unsupported conjecture. I don't thing there is any proof of this.
If there is please reference or link to it.

Wellwisher said:
The large size of dinosaurs was probably due to their smaller brains unable to inhibit body cell replication.
This is fantasy.

Wellwisher said:
Their brain could maintain differentiation control; internal equilibrium, but not fully inhibit replication. Since the cells of the dinosaur body were dominant, growing, the brain cells would see a potential to replication. The brain grew.
It is hard to make any sense out of this.

Wellwisher said:
These are predictions based on decades of studying and pondering hydrogen bonding and water and how these interface to biomaterials. This aqueous side of life is not taught so I try to teach it.
I beg to differ.
In the 1980's I took a physical biochemistry course what covered exactly these kinds of phenomena.
Not something new.
Your teaching is completely unconvincing without any kind of referencing.

Wellwisher said:
I remember years ago wondering why some of the bases of DNA has more hydrogen bonding hydrogen than it used.
Would not having a more distinctive binding structure for the two different sets of base pairs be enough? Proper binding (which having a distinction of a 2 vs. 3 H-bond recognition surface might conceivably strengthen) is basic to all maintaining of genetic information and would be strongly selected for.

Wellwisher said:
It turned out these were ear marked for the water helixes.
Does this mean that there was a plan before DNA was made for the water molecules to be in particular places?
 
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  • #63
Wellwisher said:
For example, there is a double helix of water within the DNA double helix,

Unless this is composed of ice, then there is no water helix, since liquid water doesn't form a solid structure like the DNA molecule is.

Wellwisher said:
These are predictions based on decades of studying and pondering hydrogen bonding and water and how these interface to biomaterials. This aqueous side of life is not taught so I try to teach it.

This is nonsense. The interaction of water with other molecules inside the cell is extremely important to biochemistry, and it is ludicrous that it isn't taught where it is needed. You might be right in that it isn't taught in a lower level biochemistry class (I don't know if it is or isn't), but you can be certain that the scientists working on understanding protein folding and other advanced topics understand how water functions in the cell.

I think the issue is that you're elevating water's function in the context of evolution without really having a valid reason for it. As I already said, these details just aren't that important to the general principles of evolution. Are they important for the details of how life on this planet formed and functions? Absolutely. But whether it's water or something else, the general ideas of biological evolution still apply.

We don't talk about water when talking about evolution for the same reasons we don't talk about the properties of sulfur-based molecules inside the cell. Or any other specifics. They are simply different topics. Biochemistry isn't evolution, even though the two are obviously related.
 
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  • #64
Thread closed for Moderation...

Thread will stay closed. Thanks for everybody's contributions.
 
Last edited:

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