Is the signature of this matrix zero?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of a specific symmetric matrix formed from two square matrices, M and N, where M is symmetric and N is non-singular. Participants explore whether the signature of this constructed matrix is necessarily zero, considering various mathematical approaches and potential counterexamples.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the signature may be zero based on an intuitive approach involving Lagrange multipliers and the behavior of eigenvalues under constraints.
  • Others propose a topological argument, asserting that continuous deformations of the matrix cannot change the signature without crossing zero, which they argue cannot happen due to the independence of rows.
  • A counterexample is presented with specific matrices M and N, indicating that the determinant is non-zero while the trace is zero, leading to eigenvalues of +1 and -1.
  • Some participants express interest in generalizing the discussion to a larger matrix structure, questioning whether the signature remains consistent when certain parameters are adjusted, such as shrinking T to zero.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of singular versus non-singular matrices on the determinant and signature, with some uncertainty about whether the same arguments apply in both cases.
  • One participant notes that if M is diagonal, T can be adjusted within the plane of non-zero eigenvalues, suggesting a specific approach to the problem.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing viewpoints on whether the signature of the matrix is necessarily zero, with some supporting the idea while others provide counterexamples or alternative interpretations. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing views present.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about the independence of constraints, the behavior of eigenvalues during continuous deformations, and the implications of singularity in the matrices involved. These factors contribute to the complexity of the discussion without reaching a definitive conclusion.

lavinia
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Given are two square matrices of the same dimension, M and N.

M is symmetric. N is non singular.

From M and N form the symmetric matrix,

M N
N* 0

Where N* is the transpose of N.

Is the signature of this matrix necessarily zero? Counterexample?
 
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My "engineer's intuition" says it is true, if you think about finding the extrema of x*Mx subject to the constraints Nx = 0, using Lagrange multipliers. The situations where this runs into trouble are when the constraints are not all independent, but that is excluded because N is non-singular.

Basically, each eigenvalue of M is turned into a pair of eigenvalues of the augmented matrix, one positive and one negative.

But my brain isn't working well enough to turn that idea into a proof right now - sorry!
 
I think a topological argument works here.

If you continuously deform such a matrix (within the constraints you mentioned), then the signature cannot change without an eigenvalue crossing 0. But that cannot happen without the determinant being zero. But such a matrix cannot have zero determinant because its rows are independent. In other words, the signature cannot change under a continuous deformation that maintains the given constraints on M and N.

Every symmetric matrix can be continuously deformed to 0 (by scaling it down to 0). And GL(n) only has two connected components, so each non-singular matrix can be deformed to I or I' (which is I with one entry flipped to -1). So it suffices to check M=0, N=I, and M=0,N=I'.
 
Pick for instance M=(0) and N=(1).

Determinant=-1
Trace=0
Eigenvalues are +1 and -1.
 
Vargo said:
I think a topological argument works here.

If you continuously deform such a matrix (within the constraints you mentioned), then the signature cannot change without an eigenvalue crossing 0. But that cannot happen without the determinant being zero. But such a matrix cannot have zero determinant because its rows are independent. In other words, the signature cannot change under a continuous deformation that maintains the given constraints on M and N.

Every symmetric matrix can be continuously deformed to 0 (by scaling it down to 0). And GL(n) only has two connected components, so each non-singular matrix can be deformed to I or I' (which is I with one entry flipped to -1). So it suffices to check M=0, N=I, and M=0,N=I'.

Very cool argument. It took me a while to get it.

I am going to try to generalize this to the matrix

M T 0
T* M N
0 N 0

where the conclusion now - I think - would be that the signature is this matrix is the signature of M. Can I just shrink T to zero?
 
Last edited:
AlephZero said:
My "engineer's intuition" says it is true, if you think about finding the extrema of x*Mx subject to the constraints Nx = 0, using Lagrange multipliers. The situations where this runs into trouble are when the constraints are not all independent, but that is excluded because N is non-singular.

Basically, each eigenvalue of M is turned into a pair of eigenvalues of the augmented matrix, one positive and one negative.

But my brain isn't working well enough to turn that idea into a proof right now - sorry!

This is the approach I have tried - more or less. I get a system of quadratic equations.
 
lavinia said:
I am going to try to generalize this to the matrix

M T 0
T* M N
0 N 0

where the conclusion now - I think - would be that the signature is this matrix is the signature of M. Can I just shrink T to zero?

If T is shrunk towards zero the the matrix becomes singular only if M is singular so your proof goes through.
 
lavinia said:
I am going to try to generalize this to the matrix

M T 0
T* M N
0 N 0

where the conclusion now - I think - would be that the signature is this matrix is the signature of M. Can I just shrink T to zero?

Lets see... The determinant of this matrix will equal (-1)^n(\det M) (\det N)^2, where n is the block size. If M is non-singular, the determinant is never zero, so no signature changes could happen by shrinking T down to zero.

If M is singular, the conclusion still sounds plausible, but I'm not sure whether the same proof could be adapted.
 
If M is diagonal then T can be shrunk to zero in the plane of non-zero eigen values.

Choose a basis of eigen vectors for the copy of M that is in the upper left corner of the matrix.
 

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