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B Is the smooth dark matter deBroglie's subquantic medium?

  1. Dec 8, 2016 #1

    Scientists have yet to actually observe dark matter in the flesh, but most research up to now posits it’s the kind of stuff that clumps up and aggregates into unwieldy masses around the universe. New research, however, suggests quite the opposite: dark matter is smooth as hell, distributed more evenly throughout space than we thought.​


    The mysterious dark matter that makes up most of the matter in the universe may behave more like wavy fluids​

    Could a smoothly distributed dark matter be displaced by the particles of baryonic matter which exist in it and move through it, causing it to wave?


    Since 1954, when this passage was written, I have come to support wholeheartedly an hypothesis proposed by Bohm and Vigier.​

    According to this hypothesis, the random perturbations to which the particle would be constantly subjected, and which would have the probability of presence in terms of [the wave-function wave], arise from the interaction of the particle with a “subquantic medium” which escapes our observation and is entirely chaotic, and which is everywhere present in what we call “empty space”.​

    Could what de Broglie referred to as the "subquantic medium" be the smoothly distributed dark matter which fills 'empty' space?
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 8, 2016 #2
    Do you have a reference for this quote? I haven't been able to locate anything online besides other fragmented quotes. The Wikipedia article for the De Broglie-Bohm theory doesn't mention anything about dark matter.
  4. Dec 8, 2016 #3
    It's being reported that the dark matter is much more smoothly distributed than previously thought


    When the researchers then used this data to calculate how clumpy dark matter is, they discovered that it is significantly smoother than the Planck satellite data had previously determined. This means that dark matter may be more evenly distributed than scientists have thought.​

    Not only is there evidence the dark matter is much more smoothly distributed than previously thought there are physicists who now consider it to be a superfluid.


    it could also be something in the nature of dark matter like the superfluid dark matter proposed by Justin Khoury​

    And as I posted in my original question there are those who consider it to be a wavy fluid.

    I am not discussing De Broglie-Bohm theory. I'm discussing de Broglie's double solution theory. In de Broglie's double solution theory there are two waves. There is the wave-function wave which is statistical, non-physical and is used to determine the probabilistic results of experiments. It is a mathematical construct only. There is also a physical wave in the "subquantic medium" which guides the particle.

    I realize De Broglie did not refer to the 'stuff' which fills 'empty' space as a smoothly distributed superfluid dark matter. De Broglie referred to the smoothly distributed 'stuff' which fills 'empty' space as a "subquantic medium". I'm asking if de Broglie's "subquantic medium" could be a smoothly distributed superfluid dark matter which particles of baryonic matter move through and displace, causing it to wave.

    The following appear to be examples of baryonic matter moving through and displacing the smoothly distributed superfluid dark matter.

    Milky Way's halo appears to be lopsided

    the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature
    Could the Milky Way's halo be lopsided due to the baryonic matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the smoothly distributed superfluid dark matter, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water?

    Offset between dark matter and ordinary matter: evidence from a sample of 38 lensing clusters of galaxies

    Our data strongly support the idea that the gravitational potential in clusters is mainly due to a non-baryonic fluid, and any exotic field in gravitational theory must resemble that of CDM fields very closely.​

    Is the center of the light lensing through the space neighboring the galaxy clusters and the center of the galaxy clusters themselves offset due to the galaxy clusters moving through and displacing the smoothly distributed superfluid dark matter, analogous to submarines moving through and displacing the water?

    Could what is mistaken to be a clump of weakly interacting dark matter traveling along with the matter actually be the state of displacement of the superfluid dark matter the baryonic matter moves through and displaces?

    Do we 'detect' the smoothly distributed superfluid dark matter every time a double slit experiment is performed? Is it what waves?

    Robert B. Laughlin, Nobel Laureate in Physics, endowed chair in physics, Stanford University, had this to say:

    the empty vacuum of space … is filled with 'stuff'​

    Are de Broglie's "subquantic medium" and a smoothly distributed superfluid dark matter both referring to Laughlin's 'stuff'?

  5. Dec 8, 2016 #4
    De Broglie abandoned the double solution theory in the late 1920s per the Wikipedia article Pilot wave, and:
    I'm asking if you have a reference for de Broglie's "subquantic medium" quote to better understand the context for all these questions, which seem to be rooted in personal theories.
  6. Dec 8, 2016 #5
    In pilot-wave theory the pilot-wave is the wave-function wave. De Broglie realized the wave-function wave existed in fictitious configuration space which means the pilot-wave is also fictitious. It was then that De Broglie went back to his original double solution theory.


    It assumes, as a matter of fact, that the particle is guided in its motion by the propagation of the [wave-function] wave considered in Wave Mechanics. But that assumption could only lead to a concrete and causal theory of the type I was seeking if it were possible to consider this [wave-function] wave as an objective physical reality. But the [wave-function] wave usually employed in Wave Mechanics cannot be a physical reality; its normalization is arbitrary; its propagation, in the general case, is supposed to take place in an obviously fictitious configuration space, and the success of its probabilistic interpretation shows clearly that it is merely a representation of probabilities dependent upon the state of our knowledge and suddenly modified by every new piece of information. So I saw clearly that the pilot-wave theory could not supply the interpretation I sought; it did not achieve the clearcut separation of the objective and subjective, which had been given up by Bohr and his disciples, but which it was necessary to maintain if I was to arrive at a concrete and causal interpretation of Wave Mechanics. On the other hand, my original theory of the Double Solution, by distinguishing the [wave-function] wave, with its probabilistic and subjective character, from the singularity-wave ([physical] wave), which was to be a description of objective reality, might possibly supply the more classical type of interpretation I was after.​

    During the summer of 1951, there came to my attention, much to my surprise, a paper by David Bohm which appeared subsequently in The Physical Review [3]. In this paper Bohm went back to my theory of the pilot-wave, considering the W wave as a physical reality* He made a certain number of interesting remarks on the subject, and in particular, he indicated the broad outline of a theory of measurement that seemed to answer the objections Pauli had made to my approach in 1927.3 My first reaction on reading Bohm’s work was to reiterate, in a communication to the Comptes rendus de VAcademic des Sciences [4], the objections, insurmountable in my opinion, that seemed to render impossible any attribution of physical reality to the W wave, and consequently, to render impossible the adoption of the pilot-wave theory.​

    Interpretation of quantum mechanics by the double solution theory - Louis de BROGLIE

    When in 1923-1924 I had my first ideas about Wave Mechanics I was looking for a truly concrete physical image, valid for all particles, of the wave and particle coexistence discovered by Albert Einstein in his "Theory of light quanta". I had no doubt whatsoever about the physical reality of waves and particles.​

    any particle, even isolated, has to be imagined as in continuous “energetic contact” with a hidden medium​

    For me, the particle, precisely located in space at every instant, forms on the v wave a small region of high energy concentration, which may be likened in a first approximation, to a moving singularity.​

    the particle is defined as a very small region of the wave​
  7. Dec 8, 2016 #6
    Thanks for that. I'm still confused on how this all relates to your main question:
    Is this a personal theory of yours or are you trying to verify a source that is asserting it? If it's the latter, please provide the source, otherwise the mods will probably lock this thread.
  8. Dec 8, 2016 #7
    De Broglie theorized a "subquantic medium" which fills "empty space" is what waves in a double slit experiment.

    There are physicists who now consider dark matter to be a smoothly distributed superfluid that waves.

    Are De Broglie and the physicists referring to the same 'stuff'?
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  9. Dec 8, 2016 #8


    Staff: Mentor

    AFAIK no physicists are using de Broglie's "double solution" theory, as described in the article you linked to, to try to model dark matter, so the answer is no.
  10. Dec 8, 2016 #9
    What about physicists using a smoothly distributed superfluid dark matter that waves to model wave-particle behavior? Could the silicon substrate be analogous to a smoothly distributed superfluid dark matter that waves?

    The first video borrows strongly from the subsequent two. It's a good summary of the latter videos.

  11. Dec 8, 2016 #10
    The key part of the first video was:

  12. Dec 8, 2016 #11


    Staff: Mentor

    What does this have to do with de Broglie's theory?
  13. Dec 8, 2016 #12


    Staff: Mentor

    de Broglie's theory is not just a matter of interpretation. He introduces an extra physical quantity, the "physical wave" ##v##. No such quantity appears, as far as I know, in any of the dark matter models under consideration.
  14. Dec 8, 2016 #13
    That quote is the reason why I don't like that video. I like the video because it does the best job of showing the particle interacting with its associated wave causing it to walk. It's also does the best job of showing the associated wave traveling through both slits.

    However, it's not what you are most comfortable with. There is one correct underlying physical reality.
  15. Dec 8, 2016 #14
    Dark Matter's New Wrinkle: It May Behave Like Wavy Fluid

    The mysterious dark matter that makes up most of the matter in the universe may behave more like wavy fluids​
  16. Dec 8, 2016 #15
    Are de Broglie's "subquantic medium" and a smoothly distributed superfluid dark matter that waves the same 'stuff'?
  17. Dec 8, 2016 #16


    Staff: Mentor

    The mathematical models are not the same, so no.
  18. Dec 8, 2016 #17


    Staff: Mentor

    Thread closed for moderation.

    Edit: Thread will remain closed.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
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