Is the time dimension more fundamental?

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  • #26
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Of course it is “inexisting”. What exists is 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time. Anything else is automatically non-existent..
That's an assumption, maybe you are right
 
  • #27
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That's an assumption, maybe you are right
All of the evidence supports the assumption. That is what science is about.

Besides, you adopted that assumption in the OP, so it is odd for you to reject it now. You started out stipulating that you were talking about non-existent imaginary universes, but claimed that a universe without time is impossible to imagine. I disagree with that, it is easy to imagine.
 
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  • #28
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We know that all particles are moving round at very high speeds in the micro world. The static picture we see in a mountain not moving for example, is only a statistical average of the various random motions of the constituents. Now, since the unit of speed is space divided by time, we see that space and time are firmly locked and can't be separated. Thus there is no way of telling which is more fundamental than the other- space or time. This makes velocity or momentum the most fundamental property of the universe we live in. Statistically however, one can average time out or space out leaving a quantity changing with space only, or changing with time only.
It is possible to artificially separate space and time however, by associating space with linear motion and time with circular motion. This is quite in tune with what we actually do in practice, as we measure time using oscillations of some sort. But this is only artificial, since to measure distance using light for example, we need to count the number of rotations or the time of flight as in modern official definition of the meter.
The counting of rotations/oscillations to measure time have the property that the count can only go up giving the required arrow of time. The zero of time (the present) can be chosen to be any number of rotations, with past before the zero and future after the zero. Finally since time is firmly related to motion, one can say the time has started with the first motion in the universe and will not stop before every motion stops everywhere.
 
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  • #29
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We know that all particles are moving round at very high speeds in the micro world. The static picture we see in a mountain not moving for example, is only a statistical average of the various random motions of the constituents. Now, since the unit of speed is space divided by time, we see that space and time are firmly locked and can't be separated. Thus there is no way of telling which is more fundamental than the other- space or time. This makes velocity or momentum the most fundamental property of the universe we live in. Statistically however, one can average time out or space out leaving a quantity changing with space only, or changing with time only.
It is possible to artificially separate space and time however, by associating space with linear motion and time with circular motion. This is quite in tune with what we actually do in practice, as we measure time using oscillations of some sort. But this is only artificial, since to measure distance using light for example, we need to count the number of rotations or the time of flight as in modern official definition of the meter.
The counting of rotations/oscillations to measure time have the property that the count can only go up giving the required arrow of time. The zero of time (the present) can be chosen to be any number of rotations, with past before the zero and future after the zero. Finally since time is firmly related to motion, one can say the time has started with the first motion in the universe and will not stop before every motion stops everywhere.
Thank you Riadh for an extensive reply, well worth to consider.
 
  • #30
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This is what I gathered from wikipedia (it is mentioned that time is different from the spacial dimensions)
In fact they are mentioned under two different titles... the three being referred to as "spacial dimensions" and the other as "temporal dimension"
 

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  • #31
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If we do the thougt experiment to delete one of the three spacedimentions we end up with a flat-land universe, which is fully possible to imagine (while probably not existing)
But if we delete the time dimesion it becomes inpossible to imagin. Whithout time there is no existence.
Could that mean that the time dimension is more fundamental than the other three?
Have you ever tried, say as instructional entertainment, to formulate basic mechanics without the variable called time? For example, instead of taking length, mass and time as fundamental magnitudes, take strength, length and speed. The first challenge you will find is to propose an operating procedure to measure speeds. The procedure to measure forces gives a little less problem. And the procedure for measuring length has been known since ancient times. If you do it, if you make observations and prepare data tables, in a short time you will see in the tables reasons to assume some hypothesis that inspire confidence. They inspire you at least within the limitations of your experiments. And you will also understand without much complication the need to define a function dependent on the force, the path traveled and how aligned or oblique the force is with respect to the path traveled. That is to say that defining work will be an obvious necessity. You will arrive intuitively and easily at the theorem of mechanical work and kinetic energy. And you would arrive even if you had never gone through a physics classroom or read anything about Newton. You would formulate a basic mechanics without introducing the time variable. And if after all that you want to establish a time definition, you will notice that there is no unique way to formulate a function ## t ## that satisfies the definition of time. The definition and function that you decide to adopt as a time formulation have no univocal relationship. You will also see that within the limitations of the experimental setup you have done, your tables of experimental values give a constant result when you divide the data of one column by the data of another, within the same row. That result does not change from one row to the others. So it is not wrong to assume that this quotient is a constant of each body that you have used in the tests. It is not wrong to suppose that to each body corresponds a value of that quotient, being that value independent of the speed, the force and the other conditions. That value is the mass and, only within the limitations of your essay, you have reason to consider it constant. The constant mass hypothesis complicates the form of the time function, whichever option you choose to formulate it. We could say more, but a button is enough to show.

The good thing about this didactic game is to understand that physics is not a fruit that nature has made and is hanging from a plant and is completely done, waiting for us to simply see it and take advantage of it. Physics, from its most basic beginnings, is a product that is made by mixing observations with logic, logic with supposed ideas (hypothesis), hypothesis with voluntary decisions to define magnitudes and functions, in a partially arbitrary way. The game of building basic physics without the definition of time teaches us to be prudent, austere and in favor of everything that helps avoid dogmatism.

Regarding time, it is an abstract function and it is impossible to build an instrument that directly measures time values. Everyone obtains data that is entered into the variables of the time function and gives a result that, conventionally, we decided to accept.
 
  • #32
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Have you ever tried, say as instructional entertainment, to formulate basic mechanics without the variable called time? For example, instead of taking length, mass and time as fundamental magnitudes, take strength, length and speed. The first challenge you will find is to propose an operating procedure to measure speeds. The procedure to measure forces gives a little less problem. And the procedure for measuring length has been known since ancient times. If you do it, if you make observations and prepare data tables, in a short time you will see in the tables reasons to assume some hypothesis that inspire confidence. They inspire you at least within the limitations of your experiments. And you will also understand without much complication the need to define a function dependent on the force, the path traveled and how aligned or oblique the force is with respect to the path traveled. That is to say that defining work will be an obvious necessity. You will arrive intuitively and easily at the theorem of mechanical work and kinetic energy. And you would arrive even if you had never gone through a physics classroom or read anything about Newton. You would formulate a basic mechanics without introducing the time variable. And if after all that you want to establish a time definition, you will notice that there is no unique way to formulate a function ## t ## that satisfies the definition of time. The definition and function that you decide to adopt as a time formulation have no univocal relationship. You will also see that within the limitations of the experimental setup you have done, your tables of experimental values give a constant result when you divide the data of one column by the data of another, within the same row. That result does not change from one row to the others. So it is not wrong to assume that this quotient is a constant of each body that you have used in the tests. It is not wrong to suppose that to each body corresponds a value of that quotient, being that value independent of the speed, the force and the other conditions. That value is the mass and, only within the limitations of your essay, you have reason to consider it constant. The constant mass hypothesis complicates the form of the time function, whichever option you choose to formulate it. We could say more, but a button is enough to show.

The good thing about this didactic game is to understand that physics is not a fruit that nature has made and is hanging from a plant and is completely done, waiting for us to simply see it and take advantage of it. Physics, from its most basic beginnings, is a product that is made by mixing observations with logic, logic with supposed ideas (hypothesis), hypothesis with voluntary decisions to define magnitudes and functions, in a partially arbitrary way. The game of building basic physics without the definition of time teaches us to be prudent, austere and in favor of everything that helps avoid dogmatism.

Regarding time, it is an abstract function and it is impossible to build an instrument that directly measures time values. Everyone obtains data that is entered into the variables of the time function and gives a result that, conventionally, we decided to accept.
The way we chose to measure time is of course arbitrary and thus an abstract function. But time it self, regardless of how we measure it, is obviously fundamental physics.
 
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  • #33
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time it self, regardless of how we measure it, is obviously fundamental physics.
I have no reason to affirm or deny that opinion. I just want to confess that it does not seem obvious to me.
 
  • #34
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I can imagine lots of non-existent things
I try to imagine two or three non-existent things each day before breakfast... :oldbiggrin:
 
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  • #35
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I try to imagine two or three non-existent things each day before breakfast... :oldbiggrin:
My breakfast egg this morning was very close to become non existent :-) (Now time for bed)
 

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