Is the time dimension more fundamental?

[thermia]

If we do the thougt experiment to delete one of the three spacedimentions we end up with a flat-land universe, which is fully possible to imagine (while probably not existing)
But if we delete the time dimesion it becomes inpossible to imagin. Whithout time there is no existence.
Could that mean that the time dimension is more fundamental than the other three?

 

[phinds]

Personally, I don't think it's more fundamental, just different. Flatland is an interesting mathematical construct but not, I believe, a possibility for actual existence.

 

[Ibix]

But if we delete the time dimesion it becomes inpossible to imagin.

It's just a Euclidean space. I don't see the problem imagining it - we have been doing so since Euclid's time.

 

[thermia]

Personally, I don't think it's more fundamental, just different. Flatland is an interesting mathematical construct but not, I believe, a possibility for actual existence.

Thanks for your reply. Of course flatland is highly improbable. My thought came from my inability to imagine a universe without time.

 

[thermia]

It's just a Euclidean space. I don't see the problem imagining it - we have been doing so since Euclid's time.

Well, I was tryiing to imagine physical universes. Euclidian space is just math.

 

[itfitzme]

If we do the thougt experiment to delete one of the three spacedimentions we end up with a flat-land universe, which is fully possible to imagine (while probably not existing)
But if we delete the time dimesion it becomes inpossible to imagin. Whithout time there is no existence.
Could that mean that the time dimension is more fundamental than the other three?

If you examine the measures of time in detail you will find that time is simply a measure of distance, more specifically a measure of cyclical distance. For instance, we measure time by counting the number of instances that the Sun moves around the Earth (celestial sphere).

 

[PeroK]

If we do the thougt experiment to delete one of the three spacedimentions we end up with a flat-land universe, which is fully possible to imagine (while probably not existing)
But if we delete the time dimesion it becomes inpossible to imagin. Whithout time there is no existence.
Could that mean that the time dimension is more fundamental than the other three?

I'm not sure I would use the word fundamental, but your point seems trivially true. We can study motion and systems in 1, 2 or 3 spatial dimensions, but we always need a time dimension to get physics, as we know it.

 

[thermia]

If you examine the measures of time in detail you will find that time is simply a measure of distance, more specifically a measure of cyclical distance. For instance, we measure time by counting the number of instances that the Sun moves around the Earth (celestial sphere).

Yes, of course. But physisists have thught a lot about why the so called "time arrow" seem to be forced to go in just one direction, which may indicate that there is a fundamental difference between time and other dimensions.
I have been thinking that maybe all the dimensions are not created in exactly the same moment. I'm probably wrong but it is interresting to speculate about

 

[thermia]

I'm not sure I would use the word fundamental, but your point seems trivially true. We can study motion and systems in 1, 2 or 3 spatial dimensions, but we always need a time dimension to get physics, as we know it.

Thanks for reply. I understand you see my point :-)

 

[Grinkle]

we always need a time dimension to get physics

if we delete the time dimesion it becomes inpossible to imagin

Also, I can imagine exactly one time dimension and I can imagine not moving at all or moving forward in that one dimenion. I have no idea what is implied by multiple time dimensions. I also don't have any intuitions that I trust at all regarding time travel to the past.

I can easily imagine 0, 1, 2 or 3 space dimensions, and I have intuitions that I trust regarding the implications of more than 3 spatial dimensions even if I can't make a mental picture of them.

But I don't know if that is anything more than an observation of human brain evolution.

 

[thermia]

But I don't know if that is anything more than an observation of human brain evolution.

Well, that's the wall we allways are running into, aren't we? :-)

 

[jbriggs444]

Suppose that I lay out a two dimensional coordinate system with axes labelled x and t. Suppose further that I draw a graph that satisfies the equation: $xt=1$

What grounds do I have for considering t more "fundamental" than x? Why am I forced to consider that position x evolves over time t. Why can I not with equal rigor declare that time t evolves over position x?

 

[thermia]

Of course that's correct but only in Eucledian mathematics. My question is about physical dimentions i.e.the "real" world.

 

[jbriggs444]

Of course that's correct but only in Eucledian mathematics. My question is about physical dimentions i.e.the "real" world.

Lacking a measurement procedure, both are equally hypothetical. It is a distinction without a difference.

 

[Nugatory]

Could that mean that the time dimension is more fundamental than the other three?

It's different.
Does that mean that it's more fundamental? There's no answering that question unless someone provides a definition of "fundamental" that we can use to determine how fundamental something is and compare that with the "fundamentalness" of something else - and I'm not seeing that happening.

 

[itfitzme]

Yes, of course. But physisists have thught a lot about why the so called "time arrow" seem to be forced to go in just one direction, which may indicate that there is a fundamental difference between time and other dimensions.
I have been thinking that maybe all the dimensions are not created in exactly the same moment. I'm probably wrong but it is interresting to speculate about

And there's the problem, this imagined "time arrow" which supposedly might run in some other way. At it's core, physics is simply correlating on property with another. "Time" is label we give to one of these correlations. Fundamentally, physics is a study of how things change. There are cyclical changes that we recognize, the magnitude of voltage going up and down, the point end of the hand of a clock passing a mark "12" on its face, the change of a pulse of light as it goes down and back, reflecting off some distant mirror. The standards of weights and measures was devised so that we have a common reference for correlation. When we get down to the root of it, "time" is a measure of distance. A light year is the distance light travels compared to some other reference we have chosen as a cyclical distance. Time isn't some real property of space, it is the change of an object's position in space which we mark by correlating those positions to the swing of a pendulum that cycles in position in space.

 

[Grinkle]

Time isn't some real property of space

That remark is not physics, whatever else it may be. General Relativity models spacetime and gives very specific attributes to space and time.

 

[thermia]

It's different.
Does that mean that it's more fundamental? There's no answering that question unless someone provides a definition of "fundamental" that we can use to determine how fundamental something is and compare that with the "fundamentalness" of something else - and I'm not seeing that happening.

A clever answer, well worth to consider, thank you.

 

[itfitzme]

Yes, of course. But physisists have thught a lot about why the so called "time arrow" seem to be forced to go in just one direction, which may indicate that there is a fundamental difference between time and other dimensions.
I have been thinking that maybe all the dimensions are not created in exactly the same moment. I'm probably wrong but it is interresting to speculate about

I find it an interesting think to wonder. The single observation that come close to the arrow of time is entropy. But this, as far as I know, is simply that things tend towards spreading out evenly across space. Again, we're down to that fundamental point of measure of distance, whatever changed position.

I have made some effort at finding some fundamental measure of time that doesn't involve a measure of distance and haven't. Always, in there, is that requirement of comparison to some other thing displaced in a spatial dimension, by convenience a cyclical displacement.

 

[Grinkle]

I have made some effort at finding some fundamental measure of time that doesn't involve a measure of distance and haven't.

Does it make less sense to claim that a universe containing only a single static particle is getting older than to claim that same universe is expanding? For either case, I can't think of an experiment to define either older or bigger. My point is that I don't see how time is different from space in requiring some anchor points if one is to actually measure.

 

[Dale]

But if we delete the time dimesion it becomes inpossible to imagin.

I disagree 100%. A world without time is easy to imagine, it is just very boring.

 

[thermia]

I find it an interesting think to wonder. The single observation that come close to the arrow of time is entropy. But this, as far as I know, is simply that things tend towards spreading out evenly across space. Again, we're down to that fundamental point of measure of distance, whatever changed position.

I have made some effort at finding some fundamental measure of time that doesn't involve a measure of distance and haven't. Always, in there, is that requirement of comparison to some other thing displaced in a spatial dimension, by convenience a cyclical displacement.

Interresting, could you elaborate some more about this?

 

[thermia]

I disagree 100%. A world without time is easy to imagine, it is just very boring.

I would say, not boring rather inexisting

 

[Dale]

I would say, not boring rather inexisting

Of course it is “inexisting”. What exists is 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time. Anything else is automatically non-existent.

That is far different from your claim of “inpossible to imagin”. I can imagine lots of non-existent things, and a universe without time is one of those.

 

[Dale]

When we get down to the root of it, "time" is a measure of distance.

Do you have a professional scientific reference for this? Not just that some practical measuring devices use a measure of distance to measure time, but one that actually makes this general claim that time is a measure of distance?

I have made some effort at finding some fundamental measure of time that doesn't involve a measure of distance and haven't.

Decay time of unstable fundamental particles.

 

[thermia]

Of course it is “inexisting”. What exists is 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time. Anything else is automatically non-existent..

That's an assumption, maybe you are right

 

[Dale]

That's an assumption, maybe you are right

All of the evidence supports the assumption. That is what science is about.

Besides, you adopted that assumption in the OP, so it is odd for you to reject it now. You started out stipulating that you were talking about non-existent imaginary universes, but claimed that a universe without time is impossible to imagine. I disagree with that, it is easy to imagine.

 

[Riadh]

We know that all particles are moving round at very high speeds in the micro world. The static picture we see in a mountain not moving for example, is only a statistical average of the various random motions of the constituents. Now, since the unit of speed is space divided by time, we see that space and time are firmly locked and can't be separated. Thus there is no way of telling which is more fundamental than the other- space or time. This makes velocity or momentum the most fundamental property of the universe we live in. Statistically however, one can average time out or space out leaving a quantity changing with space only, or changing with time only.
It is possible to artificially separate space and time however, by associating space with linear motion and time with circular motion. This is quite in tune with what we actually do in practice, as we measure time using oscillations of some sort. But this is only artificial, since to measure distance using light for example, we need to count the number of rotations or the time of flight as in modern official definition of the meter.
The counting of rotations/oscillations to measure time have the property that the count can only go up giving the required arrow of time. The zero of time (the present) can be chosen to be any number of rotations, with past before the zero and future after the zero. Finally since time is firmly related to motion, one can say the time has started with the first motion in the universe and will not stop before every motion stops everywhere.

 

[thermia]

We know that all particles are moving round at very high speeds in the micro world. The static picture we see in a mountain not moving for example, is only a statistical average of the various random motions of the constituents. Now, since the unit of speed is space divided by time, we see that space and time are firmly locked and can't be separated. Thus there is no way of telling which is more fundamental than the other- space or time. This makes velocity or momentum the most fundamental property of the universe we live in. Statistically however, one can average time out or space out leaving a quantity changing with space only, or changing with time only.
It is possible to artificially separate space and time however, by associating space with linear motion and time with circular motion. This is quite in tune with what we actually do in practice, as we measure time using oscillations of some sort. But this is only artificial, since to measure distance using light for example, we need to count the number of rotations or the time of flight as in modern official definition of the meter.
The counting of rotations/oscillations to measure time have the property that the count can only go up giving the required arrow of time. The zero of time (the present) can be chosen to be any number of rotations, with past before the zero and future after the zero. Finally since time is firmly related to motion, one can say the time has started with the first motion in the universe and will not stop before every motion stops everywhere.

Thank you Riadh for an extensive reply, well worth to consider.

 

[Likith D]

This is what I gathered from wikipedia (it is mentioned that time is different from the spatial dimensions)
In fact they are mentioned under two different titles... the three being referred to as "spacial dimensions" and the other as "temporal dimension"