Is there a way the ancients moved giant stones without machinery?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the methods by which ancient civilizations might have moved giant stones without the use of modern machinery. Participants explore various theories, including the use of simple tools and techniques, while also referencing popular culture and skepticism towards alternative explanations such as those proposed by the "Ancient Aliens" theory.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the validity of the pulley and log theory as a solid explanation for moving large stones.
  • Others suggest that sledges, boats, levers, oxen, watermills, ropes, and pulleys could have been used, though this raises the question of whether these qualify as machinery.
  • A participant mentions a method involving ice, where shallow trenches are flooded and frozen to drag stones across the ice, although they cannot find supporting information online.
  • There is a discussion about the perceived lack of imagination among modern theorists compared to ancient peoples who may have used simple tools effectively.
  • Some participants express confusion over the sarcasm in previous posts, indicating a miscommunication regarding the tone of the discussion.
  • References to "Poe's Law" are made, highlighting the difficulty in distinguishing between parody and serious claims in discussions about extreme theories.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no clear consensus on the methods used by ancient civilizations. Some agree on the potential for simple tools to be effective, while others remain skeptical of the explanations provided by proponents of the "Ancient Aliens" theory.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that some theories may depend on specific definitions of machinery and that assumptions about the capabilities of ancient peoples are being challenged. The discussion also reflects differing perspectives on the creativity and imagination of modern engineers versus ancient builders.

emjay
Not that I believe Ancient Aliens but is the pulley and log theory really that solid?
 
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Yes. This movie is mainly about debunking ancient aliens, but it does go into quite some details about the building:

 
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Oh, and here's a guy who is building a replica of stonehenge on his own!

 
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If Ancient Aliens says something is so, you can pretty much take it to the bank that it is not so.
 
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phinds said:
If Ancient Aliens says something is so, you can pretty much take it to the bank that it is not so.
What do you mean? If the "Alien Theorists" (meaning anyone who has a theory -- in the coloquial sense of the word) with no training in neither physiscs nor engineering , after two minutes of thought, cannot find an explanation, then what reasonable alternative is there to "alens built it". It is the ultimate in arrogance and mental lazyness. This is the (implied) message: if I , with no training in engineering nor physics do not get it, it is impossible. How could these ( usually non-white) people have come up with this if I, after a whole 30 minutes, without consulting books , nor any other source, can explain it?
 
WWGD said:
What do you mean? If the "Alien Theorists" (meaning anyone who has a theory -- in the coloquial sense of the word) with no training in neither physiscs nor engineering , after two minutes of thought, cannot find an explanation, then what reasonable alternative is there to "alens built it". It is the ultimate in arrogance and mental lazyness. This is the (implied) message: if I , with no training in engineering nor physics do not get it, it is impossible. How could these ( usually non-white) people have come up with this if I, after a whole 30 minutes, without consulting books , nor any other source, can explain it?
You do realize that 'Ancient Aliens' means creatures from outer space? It's a joke based on the extra terestrial Ancient Aliens shows.
 
Evo said:
You do realize that 'Ancient Aliens' means creatures from outer space? It's a joke based on the extra terestrial Ancient Aliens shows.
I think WWGD was being sarcastic at first, then switched to explaining his sarcasm, but without a good segue.
 
zoobyshoe said:
I think WWGD was being sarcastic at first, then switched to explaining his sarcasm, but without a good segue.
Yeah, I am confused by his response.
 
micromass said:
Oh, and here's a guy who is building a replica of stonehenge on his own!


This is the video I would have posted had you not beat me to it. It shows that such things can be done in ways that are unexpectedly easy.
 
  • #10
Evo said:
Yeah, I am confused by his response.
Yes, I don't believe a mere human could have written so confusing a response without help from...well, I'm not saying it was aliens, but...
 
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  • #11
zoobyshoe said:
Yes, I don't believe a mere human could have written so confusing a response without help from...well, I'm not saying it was aliens, but...
LOL!

25103267.jpg
 
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  • #12
Evo said:
You do realize that 'Ancient Aliens' means creatures from outer space? It's a joke based on the extra terestrial Ancient Aliens shows.
Sorry, I don't get your point. What am I missing?
zoobyshoe said:
I think WWGD was being sarcastic at first, then switched to explaining his sarcasm, but without a good segue.
" It is the ultimate in arrogance and mental lazyness"?
 
  • #13
WWGD said:
Sorry, I don't get your point. What am I missing?
That posts you're replying to are jokes about extraterrestrial tv shows?
 
  • #14
Is there way ancients moved giant stones without machinery?

yes.
sledges, boats. levers, oxen, watermills, ropes, pulleys, and more.
Ah .but that's machinery right?
 
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  • #15
Evo said:
Yeah, I am confused by his response.

No worries, there's an actual 'law' for this. It's called Poe's Law:
"The core idea of Poe's law is that a parody of something extreme can be mistaken for the real thing, and if a real thing sounds extreme enough, it can be mistaken for a parody."
 
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  • #16
Some of the ancient aliens probably ripped off the costume designs from early episodes of Star Trek though.
 
  • #17
I recall a year or two ago some research was done on using ice to move heavy stones. Shallow trenches were dug, flooded, then once frozen in the winter the stones were dragged across the ice. They hypothesised that this was the only method that could've been used for these particular stones. I can't find anything via google though.
 
  • #18
An implied point from the show is that (many) modern men (theorists are mostly male), with all its fancy technology, seems to lack the imagination to do certain things, or understand how to do thm, with , often, very simple tools, like the ancient ( non-alien) often did.
 
  • #19
WWGD said:
An implied point from the show is that (many) modern men (theorists are mostly male), with all its fancy technology, seems to lack the imagination to do certain things, or understand how to do thm, with , often, very simple tools, like the ancient ( non-alien) often did.

I don't think it's that we lack the imagination, but that most of our engineers and other people who actually figure out things like this are working with modern materials building modern structures using modern equipment and therefor have little need to put their very creative minds to figuring out how to do something in a way that became obsolete thousands of years ago.
 
  • #20
Drakkith said:
I don't think it's that we lack the imagination, but that most of our engineers and other people who actually figure out things like this are working with modern materials building modern structures using modern equipment and therefor have little need to put their very creative minds to figuring out how to do something in a way that became obsolete thousands of years ago.
Well, yes, you're right, I should have referred to the "theorists" , who assume that just because they cannot imagine it being done with everyday (basic) technology, it cannot be done at all. Sorry for all my confusion here, I will take a break.
 
  • #21
WWGD said:
Well, yes, you're right, I should have referred to the "theorists" , who assume that just because they cannot imagine it being done with everyday (basic) technology, it cannot be done at all. Sorry for all my confusion here, I will take a break.

There's no confusion here in my opinion. I was just offering my point of view on the subject.
 
  • #22
Drakkith said:
There's no confusion here in my opinion. I was just offering my point of view on the subject.

But the theorists I refer to have no training at all in engineering. They have access to a lot of fancy devices but little imagination. So I am not stating that engineers lack the creativity.
 
  • #23
WWGD said:
But the theorists I refer to have no training at all in engineering. They have access to a lot of fancy devices but little imagination. So I am not stating that engineers lack the creativity.

Okay.
 
  • #24
Drakkith said:
No worries, there's an actual 'law' for this. It's called Poe's Law:
"The core idea of Poe's law is that a parody of something extreme can be mistaken for the real thing, and if a real thing sounds extreme enough, it can be mistaken for a parody."
It's good someone gave this a name.

This issue came up in a scholarly article I once read on Mark Twain. There are certain passages in some of his travel books that are usually taken to be 'serious' passages, but which this author maintained were actually parodies of the kind of drivel you might have found in badly written travels books of the day. If that is true, that these passages are parody, you just can't tell for sure because the style in question is so over-wrought and flowery that sincere examples of it already sound ridiculous.

However, reading your link, I was disappointed to find that Poe's law had nothing to do with Edgar Allan Poe. It would have been fitting had he named this phenomenon because he wrote so many things to which it might be applied. Roughly a third of his stories are a perverted sort of comedy that consists of heavy handed parodies of notions of his day and figures of speech. He draws them out so long and in such earnest that it's impossible to sense any humor in them. An example is the story Loss of Breath. To lose one's breath, is, of course, a figure of speech, but Poe spends several pages treating it as a literal phenomenon, exploring the experiences of a man who has literally misplaced his breath, as if breath is a thing you can physically put some where, and not remember where. It is a remarkably stupid premise, and I guess the humor is supposed to be lie in the earnestness with which he attacks and fully explores such a stupid premise. I'm not really sure. Regardless, we find the humor of WWGD often reaching for the same mockery of questionable turns of speech in the same ineffective way just kidding, WWGD.
 
  • #25
zoobyshoe said:
It's good someone gave this a name.

This issue came up in a scholarly article I once read on Mark Twain. There are certain passages in some of his travel books that are usually taken to be 'serious' passages, but which this author maintained were actually parodies of the kind of drivel you might have found in badly written travels books of the day. If that is true, that these passages are parody, you just can't tell for sure because the style in question is so over-wrought and flowery that sincere examples of it already sound ridiculous.

However, reading your link, I was disappointed to find that Poe's law had nothing to do with Edgar Allan Poe. It would have been fitting had he named this phenomenon because he wrote so many things to which it might be applied. Roughly a third of his stories are a perverted sort of comedy that consists of heavy handed parodies of notions of his day and figures of speech. He draws them out so long and in such earnest that it's impossible to sense any humor in them. An example is the story Loss of Breath. To lose one's breath, is, of course, a figure of speech, but Poe spends several pages treating it as a literal phenomenon, exploring the experiences of a man who has literally misplaced his breath, as if breath is a thing you can physically put some where, and not remember where. It is a remarkably stupid premise, and I guess the humor is supposed to be lie in the earnestness with which he attacks and fully explores such a stupid premise. I'm not really sure. Regardless, we find the humor of WWGD often reaching for the same mockery of questionable turns of speech in the same ineffective way just kidding, WWGD.

Hey, what can I say, people who know me well-enough and have heard my "jokes", try to hide when they see me, but here at PF, I got a captive audience -- my kind of ( only, actually) audience.
 
  • #26
WWGD said:
Hey, what can I say, people who know me well-enough and have heard my "jokes", try to hide when they see me, but here at PF, I got a captive audience -- my kind of ( only, actually) audience.
Dude, you're getting waaaay off topic. For your penance build 5 pyramids without machines. (No alien help allowed.)
 
  • #27
zoobyshoe said:
Dude, you're getting waaaay off topic. For your penance build 5 pyramids without machines. (No alien help allowed.)

If they're inter-dimensional beings, do they still count as aliens?
 
  • #28
zoobyshoe said:
Dude, you're getting waaaay off topic. For your penance build 5 pyramids without machines. (No alien help allowed.)
But what if I can pay the Aliens under the pyramid, er, I mean table?
 
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  • #29
Drakkith said:
If they're inter-dimensional beings, do they still count as aliens?
That quetion made me want to go listen to this:

 
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  • #30
Some of the posts in this thread seem to assume that the people on Ancient Aliens actually believe what they say. I find that doubtful since they seem to be capable of feeding and dressing themselves and can probably even tie shoelaces. Personally, I think they are laughing all the way to the bank about getting paid to spout nonsense.
 
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