Is this homomorphism, actually isomorphism of groups?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter LagrangeEuler
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Groups Isomorphism
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether the Laplace transform can be classified as a homomorphism or an isomorphism of groups, particularly in the context of functions under convolution. Participants explore the properties of the domain of functions and the implications for identity and inverses in this framework.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the domain of functions forms a group, particularly regarding the existence of an identity element and inverses under convolution.
  • It is suggested that if the functions are taken from ##\mathcal{C}^0(\mathbb{R})##, an identity element may not exist.
  • One participant argues that the only candidate for an identity function would be one whose Laplace transform equals 1, which does not exist in the standard function space, necessitating the inclusion of distributions like the Dirac delta function.
  • Another viewpoint states that the Laplace transform can be considered a homomorphism of rings or algebras, depending on the chosen domain and codomain.
  • It is noted that for the Laplace transform to be an isomorphism, the domain must be a ring closed under convolution, and injectivity must be established.
  • Participants discuss that the Laplace transform is injective when restricted to continuous functions, but this may not hold for other function spaces.
  • One participant proposes that the set of continuous functions with compact support, ##C_c(\mathbb{R})##, can serve as a suitable domain where the Laplace transform acts as an isomorphism onto its image.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the Laplace transform as a homomorphism or isomorphism, with no consensus reached on whether it can be classified as such across all function spaces. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the conditions under which it may be considered an isomorphism.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the specific function space chosen and the unresolved nature of identity and inverse elements in the context of convolution.

LagrangeEuler
Messages
711
Reaction score
22
Example:
##\mathcal{L}[f(t)*g(t)]=F(s)G(s) ##
Is this homomorphism, actually isomorphism of groups? ##\mathcal{L}## is Laplace transform.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Is the domain actually a group? What is the identity with respect to convolution? How about inverses?
 
This depends on what kind of functions you want ##f## and ##g## to be. If you want the group under convolution to be on ##\mathcal{C}^0(\mathbb{R})##, you won't have an identity, for example.
 
Any identity ##e## would have to satisfy ##f = e*f##, for all ##f## in the domain, which forces
$$F(s) = \mathcal{L}[f(t)] = \mathcal{L}[e*f(t)] = E(s)F(s)$$
So for any given ##s##, if there is some ##f## in the domain for which ##F(s) \neq 0##, then we can divide by ##F(s)## to force ##E(s) = 1##. Moreover, for the special case ##f = e##, we have ##E(s) = E(s)E(s)##, which means that ##E(s)## must be either 0 or 1 for every ##s##. I believe that if ##E## is the Laplace transform of an integrable function ##e##, then ##E## must be continuous (I know this is true for the Fourier transform), in which case this forces ##E(s) = 1## for all ##s##.

Thus there is only one identity candidate, and that is a "function" ##e## satisfying ##\mathcal{L}[e(t)] = 1##. Indeed there is no such function, so we would have to enlarge the domain to include the Dirac delta distribution ##\delta##.

But the domain also needs to include inverses, i.e. for every ##f## there must be some ##g## such that ##f*g = \delta##. This will not be possible in general. (Consider ##f = 0## for one extreme case.)
 
Last edited:
It's going to be an homomorphism of rings though. Even of algebras. Even of Banach algebras! (depending on domain and codomain)
 
R136a1 said:
It's going to be an homomorphism of rings though. Even of algebras. Even of Banach algebras! (depending on domain and codomain)
Yes, for the domain one has to choose a set of functions that is actually a ring. In particular it has to be closed under the convolution operation. The set of continuous functions with compact support would work as a ring (without identity).

Then to address the rest of the question: is it an isomorphism? Well, if the domain is a ring, then the Laplace transform is a homomorphism of rings, so its image is a ring, and it's surjective onto its image. So if we choose the codomain equal to the image, we just need injectivity. This will depend on the domain. Does ##\mathcal{L}(f) = \mathcal{L}(g)## imply ##f = g##? By linearity of the Laplace transform, this is equivalent to asking whether ##\mathcal{L}(f) = 0## implies ##f = 0##. This will be true if the domain contains only continuous functions, but not in general.

[edit] In fact, the domain must be restricted to continuous functions, because otherwise it won't be closed under convolution. (Convolutions are continuous.)
 
Last edited:
So could you construct any space of function where this is isomorphism?
 
LagrangeEuler said:
So could you construct any space of function where this is isomorphism?
Sure, for example the set ##C_c(\mathbb{R})## of all continuous functions with compact support is a ring (without identity) under the operations of addition and convolution. The Laplace transform ##\mathcal{L}##, restricted to ##C_c(\mathbb{R})##, is an injective ring homomorphism, so it is an isomorphism from ##C_c(\mathbb{R})## to its image ##\mathcal{L}(C_c(\mathbb{R}))##.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
2K