Is This the Most Mind-Blowing Performance Ever?

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Yeah but no offence the most sophisticate image I've seen on that Elephant art website is a picture of a flower. A self portrait simply is a quantum leap on a picture of what looks like a flower in psychological terms.

I'm willing to accept the video is genuine only if there is corroborative evidence, don't feel bad I don't trust anything the American media says or my own half the time these days when there is an extraordinary piece of news. If I did I'd believe that Iran was definitely building nukes and Ahmadinejhad actually did say "wipe Israel off the map". Both of which have been effectively discredited.

 

[gravenewworld]

Yeah but no offence the most sophisticate image I've seen on that Elephant art website is a picture of a flower. A self portrait simply is a quantum leap on a picture of what looks like a flower in psychological terms.

I'm willing to accept the video is genuine only if there is corroborative evidence, don't feel bad I don't trust anything the American media says or my own half the time these days when there is an extraordinary piece of news. If I did I'd believe that Iran was definitely building nukes and Ahmadinejhad actually did say "wipe Israel off the map". Both of which have been effectively discredited.

I guess the BBC must be lying too when it also claims that elephants can paint other elephants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5203120.stm

Elephants have over 40,000 muslces in their trunks, it probably isn't surprising then that they may have some decent trunk eye coordination.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Now that I'll buy because it's shockingly rubbish and it says that x is the only elephant to master a self portrait. To be honest I'd queery whether it was a self portrait or a picture of another elephant, I don't think there's any way to tell. But since even chimpanzees painting themselves is very controversial, and they are said to have some sort of self awareness, I'd need more convincing that that is a self portrait.

Also I'm still not sure that video is genuine.

 

[Moonbear]

YA self portrait simply is a quantum leap on a picture of what looks like a flower in psychological terms.

Oh, I wasn't buying that it was really a self-portrait. That was just the title of the video, but doesn't mean that's what was being shown. I just think it's cute having the elephant draw an elephant. And, it's still a better elephant than I can draw!

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Oh, I wasn't buying that it was really a self-portrait. That was just the title of the video, but doesn't mean that's what was being shown. I just think it's cute having the elephant draw an elephant. And, it's still a better elephant than I can draw!

Oh yeah I didn't think you did. I'm willing to believe an elephant can paint I've seen the pictures before. But I don't know if that one is 100% authentic, it could be that he's the next Elephant equivalent of Vincent Van Gough or Monet. I just have my doubts like Evo. And I don't think it's that unfair to ask if there's anything more, you know, concrete.

It's like me claiming patently this prairie dog can act:

 

[lisab]

I like the talent of the person who drew this elephant:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1523983&postcount=467

I now return this thread to its original topic .

 

[DaveC426913]

These days I'll be suspicious of anything if it's on YouTube, but granting for the moment that the video is genuine:

Is it hard to believe that an elephant can be trained to create movements such as this and repeat them in front of an audience? Surely we agree that this elephant is going through the motions that it was taught, without any real understanding of what it's doing?

The only thing that stretches credibility for me is the sheer number of strokes in the sequence.

In other words, this elephant can create this picture and this picture alone, and only through repitition.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Possibly, but either way it's not very convincing as a work of art, as either way there's no real art involved. So if either possibility is true, ie it's faked or it's trained. It's not particularly amazing. If it's neither trained nor faked, fairly unlikely, then it's not just amazing the elephant is a genius.

 

[Evo]

I guess the BBC must be lying too when it also claims that elephants can paint other elephants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5203120.stm

Elephants have over 40,000 muslces in their trunks, it probably isn't surprising then that they may have some decent trunk eye coordination.

The article says

Mrs Khunapramot, who set up the Thai Fine Art company after studying the history of art in St Andrews and business management at Edinburgh's Napier University, said it took about a month to train the animals to paint.

Elephant expert Dr Joyce Poole, who has studied the animals for 30 years, said she owned an elephant painting but had not come across animals painting their own images.

The Oslo-based scientist said: "I have seen elephants painting, but it was very free-flow.

"It's certainly capable of drawing an elephant, and could be trained, but might not really understand what it was doing."

So they trained an elephant to paint a pattern. That's a long stretch to claiming an elephant can knowingly paint a portrait. From looking at the pattern the elephant made in the BBC article, there's your proof that the videos are faked.

 

[drankin]

As far as I'm concerned, that elephant painted a picure on canvas. Whether the elephant knew what it was painting or not, I don't know. Regardless, it's impressive. Even if the elephant didn't know what it was painting (painting memorized lines), it's still incredible that it can precisely create those lines.

Now, with this video, it looks like one could be guiding the strokes from the other side of the trunk, carefully hiding their arms or maybe they are guiding the elephant another way, kind of like how you can guide a horse without touching reins.

 

[DaveC426913]

Of course the elephant painting video is a fake. I saw it a few days ago and at first I was so amazed and I completely fell for it. The first half of the drawing blew me away, the second half though when it started going over lines to make them darker and then drawing the flower gave it away. It is a pretty good fake though they just went too far with it.

Other than it breaking your suspension of disbelief, by what criteria do you conclude it is fake?

I don't find the actual presentation taken at face-value is entirely implausible - that an elephant is making recognizable marks.

It does seem that there are those who seem to think that this video offers evidence that the elephant knows what it's doing, at which point they lose me.

 

[DaveC426913]

It occurs to me that actually listening to the video might make quite a bit of difference. I watched it wiyth the sound off. I have no idea what the video is trying to claim, I am only judging what I see.

Are they claiming it's doing something cognitive?

 

[Moonbear]

Other than it breaking your suspension of disbelief, by what criteria do you conclude it is fake?

I don't find the actual presentation taken at face-value is entirely implausible - that an elephant is making recognizable marks.

It does seem that there are those who seem to think that this video offers evidence that the elephant knows what it's doing, at which point they lose me.

Right, this is what I'm trying to say too. I don't see anything that looks "faked" about the video. Whether it means what the people presenting it are claiming, no, I don't necessarily agree, but that doesn't mean the video is a fake, just that there is likely another explanation (like the elephant is trained to trace lines on the paper we can't see from the camera angle...that wouldn't be faked, just a well-trained elephant).

 

[Art]

It's not a hoax, just google "elephant art" and you will get tons of crap.

There's even a national geographic article on it

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/06/0626_020626_elephant.html



More elephant art

http://store.exoticworldgifts.com/prostores/servlet/-strse-277/Painted-by-an-Elephant/Detail

http://store.exoticworldgifts.com/prostores/servlet/-strse-278/Painted-by-an-Elephant/Detail

Elephant art exists but following the links from the nat'l geo site the art they produce is more like you would expect from an elephant http://paintings.novica.com/elephant-art/cz1nnsz22nnstz0nnrz21nn/ .

I suspect the OP video is a bit of self publicity by exoticworldgifts timed to coincide with April fool's day.

 

[tribdog]

I never said an elephant couldn't paint, but I've seen elephant painting about half of the paint ends up on the canvas the rest is on its head and on the ground and on the trainer. If an elephant painting turns out to resemble anything it is a matter of sheer luck. There is no way an elephant can paint a picture like the one on the video without making any mistakes and so quickly. It even picks up the brush and flips the bristles the other way to change direction in its stroke. The only thing in the video that is real is the elephant walking up to the canvas. After that it is clever cg.

 

[DaveC426913]

I never said an elephant couldn't paint, but I've seen elephant painting about half of the paint ends up on the canvas the rest is on its head and on the ground and on the trainer. If an elephant painting turns out to resemble anything it is a matter of sheer luck. There is no way an elephant can paint a picture like the one on the video without making any mistakes and so quickly. It even picks up the brush and flips the bristles the other way to change direction in its stroke. The only thing in the video that is real is the elephant walking up to the canvas. After that it is clever cg.

Ah. You're comparing it to other events that you've seen that lead you to be fairly confident that this is well beyond the capabilities of elephant intelligence.

OK. That works for me.

If one sees a nice smooth dataset, and one datapoint almost off the chart, one should be very suspicious of that datapoint.



I confess, I too took note of the fact that the painter was quite deft about switching the paintbrush's angle of attack when switching the direction of stroke. That is a highly nuanced action.

 

[tribdog]

I have to admit I was completely fooled for the first half of the video. When it got to adding the third and fourth legs though I realized something was fishy. The flower in the trunk was the nail in the coffin. Plus the way the trunk shook before it slammed the brush onto the canvas makes me wonder how it could possibly draw such perfect lines and never once make a mistake.

 

[Gokul43201]

Claim: Video clip shows an elephant painting a picture of an elephant.

Status: True.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/elephantpainting.asp

 

[Poop-Loops]

Now can you all please fall to your knees in amazement?

 

[DaveC426913]

That's what I was hypothesizing - the video is real, no trickery; but there's dispute about the nature of what we're seeing.

It certainly puts elephants very high on the list of intelligence IMO. Ain't ne'er seen no dolphin do that...

 

[Moonbear]

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/elephantpainting.asp

Thank you! That's what I've been trying to say. Just because other elephants' paintings are messy doesn't mean one couldn't be trained to copy a pattern more neatly.

I think it's more interesting just seeing how well they can control the movements of their trunks (the number of muscles in their trunks to give them such fine control of movement is amazing). And, as I mentioned in the beginning, there seems to be an odd problem of depth perception (unless the elephant was hesitating waiting for an appropriate signal from the trainer).

 

[Gokul43201]

And, as I mentioned in the beginning, there seems to be an odd problem of depth perception (unless the elephant was hesitating waiting for an appropriate signal from the trainer).

I don't think that's a problem with depth perception. I think it's just a matter of doing something with a precision that an elephant typically doesn't have to bother with. Humans use their hands a lot for making very precise motions, but not so much their legs. If you try sketching on a vertical canvas with a marker held between your toes, you'll find it's harder to do...and you'd be searching around a little bit like Jumbo. Once the marker's on the surface though, it steadies your foot, and makes it easier to follow a desired path.

 

[Evo]

I posted that yesterday.

The article says

Mrs Khunapramot, who set up the Thai Fine Art company after studying the history of art in St Andrews and business management at Edinburgh's Napier University, said it took about a month to train the animals to paint.

Elephant expert Dr Joyce Poole, who has studied the animals for 30 years, said she owned an elephant painting but had not come across animals painting their own images.

The Oslo-based scientist said: "I have seen elephants painting, but it was very free-flow.

"It's certainly capable of drawing an elephant, and could be trained, but might not really understand what it was doing."

So they trained an elephant to paint a pattern. That's a long stretch to claiming an elephant can knowingly paint a portrait. From looking at the pattern the elephant made in the BBC article, there's your proof that the videos are faked.

Of course I bow to MB since she had more faith in the elephant's art than I had. I love elephants, that reunion show I mentioned just ripped my heart out, these animals have feelings of love and affection and bonding that are incredible.

I apologize to gravenewworld also, I guess his elephant was also trained to paint.

 

[Moonbear]

Of course I bow to MB since she had more faith in the elephant's art than I had.

Not so much faith as just knowing that they do have such exquisite motor control of their trunks that it's entirely plausible to me that they could have fine control of a paintbrush.

After Gokul's last comment, I'm tempted to get a paintbrush and see how well I paint with my toes, just to see if pressing the brush on the paper gives me a feeling of more control than approaching the paper. (It can't be any worse than when I used to take notes left-handed to keep myself entertained in boring lectures...I will still find myself with a pen in my left hand if I've been listening intently to a lecture or seminar.)

 

[gravenewworld]

Pic of my elephant art that I picked up on my trip to Thailand

Definitely real, saw it paint it with my own eyes. LOL I paid only a $1.50 for it. I was looking on the net and some elephant art sells for 100s of dollars.

 

[WarPhalange]

It must be made out of higher-quality elephants or something if it costs 100 times more.

 

[grant9076]

I am no zoologist. However, even I know that elephants have http://www.elephantvoices.org/tools/documents/ElephantBrain_shoshani.pdf" in comparison to ours. In addition, an average elephant has a massive corpus collosum. Here is a small excerpt:

an elephant brain is
about 3.4 times larger than a human brain, but the measurement
of the facial nerve of the elephants is 5.2 times larger than that
of a human. In elephants, the most striking feature of the cranial
nerves is the enormous size of the nerves supplying the proboscis.

In light of this, why is it so difficult to believe that an elephant has reasonable trunk dexterity?

I am not saying that their larger brain size makes them smarter than we are.

However, I know that a large brain is a biologically expensive organ to maintain. In short, elephants have large brains because they need them for something. It is quite likely that they are not stupid as many people think.

 

[rootX]

I'll have to hunt for one. After seeing this documentary, you will never think of elephants as being less than human.

Did you find it? :!)
I couldn't find it on this thread.

I also saw one similar elephant documentary on Discovery Wild some five year ago. It made my cry!

And as for Elephant drawing, I don't think it's a talent. I wonder how happy the elephant would be if you force him to do something for your own pleasures. I feel like it's little disgusting, particularly the way some people train animals for making money/amusing themselves. I never liked circus when even I was very little.