Is Vaccination Necessary in the Age of Digital Singularity?

  • Thread starter Thread starter DaveC426913
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Should anyone who can do so get vaccinated against H1N1?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 19 46.3%

  • No.

    Votes: 16 39.0%

  • It's not as simple as that.

    Votes: 6 14.6%
  • Total voters
    41
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98 replies · 14K views
Alfi said:
My apologies. When I re-read that, it sounds very harsh. It was not meant to be.

Sorry Alfi, but I have no clue. That's why I mentioned it's free here, in Canada, not because I'm bragging but because that's the reason I don't have any information. Where are you at that it's going to cost you?
 
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Count Iblis said:
It may be the case that the Swine flu is overall as deadly as ordinary flu and quite a but milder that ordinary flu in most cases. But then the statistics also show that 30% of the people that died from it were young and healthy. That's definitely not what happens in case of ordinary flu.

It appears not to be true for this strain:

Total deaths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_by_country"
Ped deaths: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm#MS"

roughly 14%

And a report last month showed that a majority of the children who died were not healthy.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5834a1.htm" had one or more of the high-risk medical conditions.

Though they did say the following:
All children aged ≥6 months and caregivers of children aged <6 months should receive influenza A (H1N1) 2009 monovalent vaccine when available.

The CDC says that around http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/vaccinesupply.htm" have been shipped so far, or about enough for 1 in 20.
 
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I got the vaccine shot three times yesterday. I went to 3 clinics. I figured I play it safe and get it 3 times.
 
I reckon the chances of my getting swine flu are close to 0%. I reckon if I get swine flu, the chances of me dying from it are still close to 0%. The chance of me dying from swine flu (almost 0%)2, that is very very unlikely.
 
Pagan Harpoon said:
I reckon the chances of my getting swine flu are close to 0%. I reckon if I get swine flu, the chances of me dying from it are still close to 0%. The chance of me dying from swine flu (almost 0%)2, that is very very unlikely.

Great conclusion mate.
 
Pagan Harpoon said:
I reckon the chances of my getting swine flu are close to 0%. I reckon if I get swine flu, the chances of me dying from it are still close to 0%. The chance of me dying from swine flu (almost 0%)2, that is very very unlikely.

I'll bet that perfectly healthy 13 year old boy had the exact same logic.
 
I am not familiar with the 13 year old boy story, but I think I can guess the significant part. If he had thought about it, then yes, he probably would have had the same logic - and it remains perfectly sound logic, regardless of the fact that he died (I presume). There are any number of extremely low probability possibilities that result in my death that could easily be eliminated. For example, I might get shot such that I would have survived if I had had a small metal shield in my shirt pocket. I don't doubt that lots of people have died in such a manner.
 
I think that's unfair. If nobody disagrees that the odds of my dying from swine flu are extremely low indeed... ridiculously low, then why should I give any special status to that potential death over all of the other very unlikely ones?
 
Pagan Harpoon said:
I think that's unfair. If nobody disagrees that the odds of my dying from swine flu are extremely low indeed... ridiculously low, then why should I give any special status to that potential death over all of the other very unlikely ones?

Because this one effects other people around you not just yourself.
 
I think the almost 0% chance of my getting it is sufficiently close to 0% for me to disregard it completely, even putting aside the fact that my life would still be in almost no danger if I were infected. By this I mean that for my not being vaccinated to affect people around me, I would first need to be infected and that is itself very unlikely... very very unlikely. If you judge it to be sufficiently likely to warrant getting vaccinated for the greater good, then go ahead, but calling me an idiot is unfair.

In addition to this... surely, it is the responsibility of the people who might be at risk of dying from it to have themselves vaccinated and not rely on other people vaccinating themselves to avoid transmitting it to them?
 
Pagan Harpoon said:
I think that's unfair. If nobody disagrees that the odds of my dying from swine flu are extremely low indeed... ridiculously low, then why should I give any special status to that potential death over all of the other very unlikely ones?

I disagree with your odds. I believe your odds of getting swine flu is probably above "almost 0%" whatever that means (my guess would be at least 1%, but I'm not a doctor of course). A potentially pandemic disease needs some sort of critical mass to become a pandemic and I don't believe we have reached that yet, and hope we won't. However I think there is a pretty large chance that it will happen and then the probability of getting swine flu is going to be pretty high. Also you're only evaluating the event that you die, but you also have to consider that 1) getting the swine flu, but not dieing, is likely an unpleasant event. 2) if a lot of people do like you, then the odds of it turning pandemic is much larger.

As for the comparison with getting shot: If there was a (medical) shot against getting shot and I was offered it for free, then I would certainly accept it.

Personally I'm getting my shot next Monday. One thing I don't really understand is why there are such ridiculous waiting times. Don't people reserve a time slot to get the shot, or do they just turn up? Personally I had a call from a nurse at the hospital who told me I was offered a for free shot and that I should set up a time with my GP within the next couple of weeks. My GP informs me that there may be 30mins of waiting, but that's it.
 
Wearing the small metal shield in my shirt pocket is equivalent to a vaccine against getting shot in that particular part of my chest.

I think that you overestimate the possibility of my getting swine flu, but we can't discuss that properly, I expect. I will accord no credence to the porposition that swine is or might be pandemic until I at least know of a single person who has or had it. Every case that has been reported to me has come through some sort of mass communication, the news and so on. I find that the fact that I don't know anyone who has told me that they know someone who knows someone who had swine flu is somewhat incongruent with the view of the situation that is being presented by the media.
 
Pagan Harpoon said:
Wearing the small metal shield in my shirt pocket is equivalent to a vaccine against getting shot in that particular part of my chest.

I think that you overestimate the possibility of my getting swine flu, but we can't discuss that properly, I expect. I will accord no credence to the porposition that swine is or might be pandemic until I at least know of a single person who has or had it. Every case that has been reported to me has come through some sort of mass communication, the news and so on. I find that the fact that I don't know anyone who has told me that they know someone who knows someone who had swine flu is somewhat incongruent with the view of the situation that is being presented by the media.

I've gotten swine flu and regular flu this year. I also know a few people who have gotten swine flu... Imagine that you're grandma had caught swine flu from someone she worked with and she died from it...
 
If that had happened, I expect that I might feel differently about it. Similarly, if my grandmother had died in a car crash recently, I would be wary of getting into a car, but that hasn't happened.

Edit - Ah, I see, your implication was different - however, I maintain my position. At the present, I have not been personally touched by this, so I can be perfectly logical about it - it is the responsibility of those at risk of death to have themselves vaccinated, if they don't and get the disease and die, that is their own lookout. If the situation that you described were to happen and that would obscure my view, that is irrelevant. A hypothetical situation of similar worth - what if I were put up for adoption when I was born and turned out a completely different person with a less logical mind, then my view would be different.
 
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Pagan Harpoon said:
Wearing the small metal shield in my shirt pocket is equivalent to a vaccine against getting shot in that particular part of my chest.
Yes, and if the vaccine worked in that way I probably wouldn't bother to take it, but as the vaccine will actually protect me more like a bulletproof vest than a metal shield. I don't walk around with a metal shield in my pocket.

I think that you overestimate the possibility of my getting swine flu, but we can't discuss that properly, I expect. I will accord no credence to the porposition that swine is or might be pandemic until I at least know of a single person who has or had it. Every case that has been reported to me has come through some sort of mass communication, the news and so on. I find that the fact that I don't know anyone who has told me that they know someone who knows someone who had swine flu is somewhat incongruent with the view of the situation that is being presented by the media.
I totally agree that at the moment it isn't a pandemic and that it's blown out of proportions by the media. If we were 100% sure that the number of infections wouldn't increase dramatically, then I probably wouldn't bother. The reason I take the shot is that I believe it may become a pandemic. However you're probably right that at the moment laypeople (which I am) can't really have a rational discussion about the probabilities and I accept you choice to attribute a smaller probability to the event of you getting swine flu. Finally some anecdotal support: I actually know 2 people that were confirmed infected and plenty who believe they were, but were told that they should do nothing, but stay indoors and call the hospital in case the symptoms worsened considerably. I'm aware that anecdotal evidence isn't a rational basis for making a decision and that most people who believe they have the swine flu probably don't, but I thought I would provide a counterpoint to your "I don't know anyone infected".
 
Is there a number for people who got the flu shots but still got sick?
 
Waiting until everyone around you has the flu before you get the vaccine isn't a good idea. Although the vaccine becomes effective after only 2 weeks, the earlier in the season you can get it, the better.

I'm not allergic to eggs, so there is no reason for me to not get the vaccine. Get the shot and not get sick or not get it and risk getting sick. It's a no brainer to get the shot for me. Yes, the risk of getting the flu is extremely small, but the "real" flu, not the colds people get that they call the flu, is so painful, that not getting the vaccine doesn't even cross my mind.

I've only been getting the vaccine for the last few years since my second, and hopefully last bout of flu.

Now if they would develop a vaccine for clumsiness, I'd be perfect.
 
Pagan Harpoon said:
Wearing the small metal shield in my shirt pocket is equivalent to a vaccine against getting shot in that particular part of my chest.

I think that you overestimate the possibility of my getting swine flu, but we can't discuss that properly, I expect. I will accord no credence to the porposition that swine is or might be pandemic until I at least know of a single person who has or had it. Every case that has been reported to me has come through some sort of mass communication, the news and so on. I find that the fact that I don't know anyone who has told me that they know someone who knows someone who had swine flu is somewhat incongruent with the view of the situation that is being presented by the media.

About 50% of the employees in my building have had it (including me), and there were about 5 more out sick this week.

Full disclosure: no one went to the doctor to confirm it's H1N1. However, the CDC states on http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/update.htm" :

Almost all of the influenza viruses identified so far are 2009 H1N1 influenza A viruses. These viruses remain similar to the virus chosen for the 2009 H1N1 vaccine, and remain susceptible to the antiviral drugs oseltamivir and zanamivir with rare exception.

So I think it's safe to assume that a flu-like illness spreading around an office at this time (with all the classic H1N1 symtoms) is likely H1N1.
 
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What about what we were talking about earlier. The self-administered vaccinations what you guys think about that idea huh? Evo...lisa?
 
Sorry! said:
What about what we were talking about earlier. The self-administered vaccinations what you guys think about that idea huh? Evo...lisa?

Hmm, I must have missed those posts. By self-administered, you mean giving yourself a shot? Probably a bad idea.

But I think the issue isn't who gives the shot, it's whether you should get it or not.

I voted yes.
 
Sorry! said:
What about what we were talking about earlier. The self-administered vaccinations what you guys think about that idea huh? Evo...lisa?
It's silly, it takes just as long to hand someone a syringe of the vaccine as it does to inject them. The health department is starting to track who gets the vaccine so it makes even less sense to give it to someone and never know if they actually injected it.

It literally took less than two minutes for me to get my vaccine. I walked in, handed the woman my information sheet (for tracking), sat down, she did an alcohol swab, said "1,2,3", placed a bandaid over the injection, and it was over. Of course it was done privately at my place of employment and they scheduled appointments, they alloted 5 minutes per appointment, but it didn't take half of that.
 
Evo said:
It literally took less than two minutes for me to get my vaccine.
Here, people have waited in line for as much as 7 hours.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Here, people have waited in line for as much as 7 hours.
Yes, it's a problem with the number of workers in a public clinic.

If you live in the US, Walgreens pharmacies give the shots and there are no lines. In areas where there are no Walgreens, other pharmacies offer the shots, even my grocery store gives them. My doctor gives them. I think there may be problems in Canada?

But are we talking seasonal flu shots or H1N1? I wonder if people realize that they are two different shots?
 
DaveC426913 said:
Here, people have waited in line for as much as 7 hours.

But it didn't take 7 hours to administer a shot. Obviously health clinics can't just put out a box of syringes for people to take. People will have to be given instruction on how to properly administer it, how to recognize bad reactions to the shot, what to do in case of adverse effects, etc. They will probably also have to show some id and be recorded in a database. In addition many people will have questions, and a lot of people are afraid enough of needles not to want to take it themselves. I would guess that we would see about as long a waiting time if people could self-administer, but with a much larger rate of incorrectly administered vaccines.

I personally take some medication that I have to inject on a biweekly basis using an auto-injector. I believe this is one of the simplest delivery systems for injections yet it took at least 10 minutes for a nurse to tell me all she had to and they required for my first shot to be administered at the hospital, and the second I could take myself but I had to be at the hospital so they could observe whether I was able to perform the injection correctly. I was also told that lots of people don't like to self-administer the injection. In addition I believe an auto-injector is fairly expensive and if we have to buy millions of them, then it could cost quite a lot and I doubt we can just give people ordinary syringes to perform the vaccine.
 
Evo said:
I think there may be problems in Canada?

A big part of the problem was that they delayed approving the vaccine. Add to this a few well publicised healthy teens dying, and demand went way up.

My wife waited 4 hours in line today to get hers.
 
No. Nobody should be vaccinated against their will. Besides, all US citizens do not have the same level of immunity to the new strain of flu. Some americans immune system will easily fight it off and some immune system will have a hard time fighting off the strain of flu.
 
noblegas said:
No. Nobody should be vaccinated against their will. Besides, all US citizens do not have the same level of immunity to the new strain of flu. Some americans immune system will easily fight it off and some immune system will have a hard time fighting off the strain of flu.
No one is being vaccinated against their will.

There is no natural immunity to the flu.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm
 
lisab said:
About 50% of the employees in my building have had it (including me), and there were about 5 more out sick this week.

So how many people are there in your building and how many have died. We need to keep the statistical http://urban-science.blogspot.com/2009/10/h1n1-vaccination-hysteria-part-2-should.html" going.
 
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OmCheeto said:
So how many people are there in your building and how many have died. We need to keep the statistical http://urban-science.blogspot.com/2009/10/h1n1-vaccination-hysteria-part-2-should.html" going.

Well, a coworker died about a year ago. OK so it wasn't from flu, but that's totally irrelevant.

There are about 35 people in the building (after 2 rounds of layoffs :cry:).
 
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lisab said:
About 50% of the employees in my building have had it (including me), and there were about 5 more out sick this week.

Full disclosure: no one went to the doctor to confirm it's H1N1. However, the CDC states on http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/update.htm" :

Almost all of the influenza viruses identified so far are 2009 H1N1 influenza A viruses. These viruses remain similar to the virus chosen for the 2009 H1N1 vaccine, and remain susceptible to the antiviral drugs oseltamivir and zanamivir with rare exception.

So I think it's safe to assume that a flu-like illness spreading around an office at this time (with all the classic H1N1 symtoms) is likely H1N1.
Unless it's diagnosed though, we can't even say it was the flu.

This year seems to be odd that no one has had a cold, it's all the flu.
 
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