Is Zero Curvature Space Equivalent to Flat Space in General Relativity?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between zero curvature space and flat space within the context of general relativity. Participants explore definitions, coordinate systems, and the implications of curvature on the nature of space, addressing both theoretical and conceptual aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that a flat space is defined by an invariant metric field ##g_{\mu\nu}(x)= \eta_{\mu\nu}##, leading to a zero connection ##\Gamma_{\mu\nu}^\rho(x)=0##.
  • Others argue that while it is possible to find coordinates where ##g_{\mu\nu} = \eta_{\mu\nu}##, this is not universally applicable across all coordinate systems, citing examples like polar coordinates.
  • One participant questions the validity of using the metric to define flatness, seeking a more precise definition of flat space.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the curvature tensor being zero is a definitive characteristic of flat space, independent of the coordinate system used.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of coordinate transformations and their effect on the metric, with some claiming that not all transformations preserve the flatness of a space.
  • Some participants suggest that zero curvature space should be considered flat, while others maintain that flatness is a property of the space itself, not dependent on specific coordinates.
  • Participants explore the implications of different coordinate systems on the description of flat spacetime, noting that exotic coordinates do not alter the underlying geometry.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on whether zero curvature space is equivalent to flat space. Multiple competing views are presented regarding the definitions and implications of curvature and flatness in different coordinate systems.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions of flatness and curvature, particularly in relation to coordinate transformations and their effects on the metric. The discussion highlights the complexity of these concepts in the framework of general relativity.

  • #31
Jianbing_Shao said:
Perhaps I can not express my opnion clearly, what I stressed is just that: to a vector field ##v(x)##, and we can express ##v(x)## using basis ##e^\mu(x)##.then
$$v(x)=v_\mu(x)e^\mu(x)$$
also we can express ##v(x)## using basis ##e'^\mu(x)##, and
$$v(x)=v_\mu(x)e^\mu(x)=v'_\mu(x)e'^\mu(x)$$
then because all the basis ##e^\mu(x)## are coordinate basis, so sometimes when we express ##v(x)## from one basis to another, then the changes of components can not be equivalantly described as change under coordinate transformation
I am sorry, it is impossible to deduce what you are trying to say here. If anything, this post made your argument murkier, not clearer.
 
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  • #32
vanhees71 said:
In 2D just extend @Orodruin 's example of the 1D circle to a 2D cylinder surface :wink:
Actually, as I hinted to in a later post (#17), the cylinder is not as easy to get as the circle as the cylinder does admit a global coordinate system (being homeomorphic to ##\mathbb R^2 \setminus \{0\}##). The problem becomes showing that there is no way to arrange such a global coordinate system such that the metric becomes diagonal with the diagonal entries equal to one.

Edit: Just to be a little more specific. The global coordinate system on the cylinder ##x^2+y^2=r^2_0## as a submanifold of ##\mathbb R^3## using coordinates ##\xi## and ##\eta## on ##\mathbb R^2 \setminus \{0\}## can be constructed as
$$
x = \frac{r_0 \xi}{\sqrt{\xi^2 + \eta^2}}, \quad
y = \frac{r_0 \eta}{\sqrt{\xi^2 + \eta^2}}, \quad
z = \frac{r_0}{2} \ln\left(\frac{\xi^2 + \eta^2}{r_0^2}\right).
$$
Of course, in these coordinates, the induced metric from the embedding in ##\mathbb R^3## does not take the ##\delta## form, but it shows that a global coordinate system exists, making the argument a bit muddier than for the circle.
 
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  • #33
Ibix said:
What do you mean by "it can change" as it goes around the loop? To what are you comparing it?
I know where I was wrong, thanks ! everyone
 
  • #34
Jianbing_Shao said:
I know where I was wrong, thanks ! everyone
Please tell us. We would like to make sure that you have gotten it right. (It happens more than you would think that people tell us they have gotten it, only to return with similar misconceptions a few days later.)
 
  • #35
Orodruin said:
I am sorry, it is impossible to deduce what you are trying to say here. If anything, this post made your argument murkier, not clearer.
Perhaps it can be stated that not all metric ##g_{\mu\nu}(x)## can globally transform to ##\eta_{\mu\nu}## under coordinate transformation.
 
  • #36
Another way to start classifying random metrics, and if they're flat, is to look into Petrov classifications if you have not OP.
 

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