Japanese roll out water powered car

[Dale]

I see a lot of disbelief posts, but not a 'it can't be done, and here's why' post.

If you did not see my post 8, neo's post 14, russ' post 25, and chi's post 37 then perhaps you should get your prescription checked (sorry to anyone whose scientific explanation I missed, there were a lot). But here is a detailed explanation for everyone who slept through chemistry.

Any given chemical bond has a certain amount of energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_enthalpy_change_of_formation_%28data_table%29" ) that is required to create it from its base atoms. This is the amount of energy that can later be released to run a vehicle.

For example, water has a heat of formation of -286 kJ/mol meaning that a lot of energy is produced by reacting hydrogen and oxygen to form water in the first place so there is not much energy left. One of the reasons that there is so much water on the planet is that water has this very low energy state, think of the abundance of water and the scarcity of H2 similar to how you will expect to see more rocks at the bottom of a steep hill than on the top since the bottom is a lower energy state. You can think of a lower energy state being "downhill" from a higher energy state and therefore energy can be extracted e.g. to drive a vehicle.

Gasoline (octane) has an energy around -50 kJ/mol, and carbon dioxide has an energy around -394 kJ/mol. This means that you can get a lot of energy out by burning gasoline (converting it from octane and oxygen to carbon dioxide and water).

Now, when you claim that your fuel is water then you can make products containing hydrogen and oxygen from the water, and nitrogen or more oxygen from the air. Remember water already starts off very low on the energy "hill" (-286 kJ/mol). Hydrogen peroxide is -188 kJ/mol, so that is "uphill" and you lose energy. Hydrogen and oxygen gas are both 0 kJ/mol, so that is even further uphill. Ammonia is -81 kJ/mol, so that is uphill too. Nitrogen dioxide and nitrogen monoxide are even further uphill at 33 and 90 kJ/mol respectively.

There is just literally nowhere downhill from water using only water and air. If they are using something other than water and air (e.g. NaH) then that is the real fuel for the car, not the water.

Should my BS detector flip flop on them or you guys.
Neither side has convinced me and one side has a physical object to be tested.

You will note that they have not allowed their physical object to be tested by an independent third party. That in itself is quite telling.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm sooo much faster than you.

 

[Dale]

Hehe, yes, "I'm not worthy!"

 

[gravenewworld]

I got it, they produce massive amounts of sodium hydride in a factory that is completely powered by solar, wind, and water energy.

 

[edward]

I don't know what ever became of this gallium aluminum alloy patent.

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007a/070515WoodallHydrogen.html

It definitely produces hydrogen, but it takes much, much more than just water.

Edit: I see one of the researchers has a patch on his eye. That's not a good sign.

 

[Alfi]

Thank you all for very convincing arguments.
You certainly do raise up when challenged. :)

Global TV in Toronto has been running the tape of that 'test drive' every 30 minuets this morning. As a news item in breaking technology.
There are going to be a lot of people believing in this energy source by days end.
I sent Global an email to ask if anyone there was checking into the possibility the story may be about a fraudulent item. I'll be curious if anyone returns a comment.

 

[Chi Meson]

Thank you all for very convincing arguments.
You certainly do raise up when challenged. :)

Very gracious of you. We have hope for you yet!

 

[Alfi]

If you did not see my post 8, neo's post 14, russ' post 25, and chi's post 37 then perhaps you should get your prescription checked (sorry to anyone whose scientific explanation I missed, there were a lot). But here is a detailed explanation for everyone who slept through chemistry.

I am old ( hehe 52) and I am starting to learn all over again on my own.
One of the first things I have learned or re-learned is to ask questions, and if I still don't understand to ask some more. Sometimes the questions are, So, why do you think you are so right, and is there no room for breakthroughs anymore? It's not that I'm being obstinate, as much as persistent. My apologies for appearing to argue just for the sake of it.
You will note that they have not allowed their physical object to be tested by an independent third party. That in itself is quite telling.

Nice tutorial. Thanks. Clear and without too much requirement for prior knowledge. Thanks for the effort and time. It's been a few years since grade twelve but it's sort of still there.

Also, from just a people point of view, I found it very telling to me that, first, were this to be a true 'new' technology worth developing I am fairly sure I would have seen this in every solid science magazine out there.
Second, if they held back like the Asimo people, they would have called in a big bang news conference and just wowed us, just as Honda did. That was a cool intro to a step up in the field. ( just my opinion. I impress easy )
Reuters just doesn't play. It sounds like a bad bell.

But now it's lose on the net. The local stations are picking it up.

So many people and so much to un-learn. It's wonder we can trust anything.
Thanks for the explanations. the ball is in their court now as they must prove the claim with their physical model.
Then ( and only then) they can become the next world hero's and invisionist's.

 

[Dale]

So, why do you think you are so right, and is there no room for breakthroughs anymore?

Please don't get me wrong. I am an engineer, so my life's work is about creating technological breakthroughs in my field. There is plenty of room for breakthroughs, and technology is advancing at an ever-increasing rate. However, breakthroughs occur by understanding reality and using natural laws to our advantage. Not by ignoring reality in favor of fantasy and wishes. TANSTAAFL

Nice tutorial. Thanks. Clear and without too much requirement for prior knowledge. Thanks for the effort and time. It's been a few years since grade twelve but it's sort of still there.

You are very welcome, I am glad you liked it.

Also, from just a people point of view, I found it very telling to me that, first, were this to be a true 'new' technology worth developing I am fairly sure I would have seen this in every solid science magazine out there.

Yes, that is a good point. The way this would happen if it were a legitimate breakthrough is that they would apply for patent protection first. There is no way they would invite Reuters over without patent protection since that is "public disclosure".

After getting protection they could freely publish all of the details in reputable peer-reviewed journals, allow all sorts of independent testing, and open up the "black box" for everyone to see. It would be in their best interest to do so in order to dispell any doubt and really make money. Getting a patent is not that difficult, I have a few and none represent any amazing breakthrough like this. The fact that they have not protected it and instead are keeping the mechanism secret says to me that there is nothing there to patent.

 

[rohanprabhu]

A much needed article in a world of idiotic believers

People today are so inclined in 'beating the system', they go as far as claiming that the Law of Conservation of Energy is some kind of a Conspiracy theory, without even knowing all the phenomena this law has been able to predict and confirm, and has passed the test of time. To quote house, "you know what's worse than useless? Useless and oblivious" . The price of the information age, i guess.

Water powered cars has been another debate with people saying that the oil companies are holding the truth from us to earn big bucks. In this world of ignorance, and how do i put it, 'rebellious ignorance', this is a much needed article: http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1769/68

to quote a part of it:

Until someone puts a box on their driveway and it generates more power than goes into it...everyone who says you can power a car with water is either a fool or trying to take someone else's money.

 

[mgb_phys]

The law of conservation of energy is un-American, write to your congress person and demand that they repeal it now!

ps. I love the first comment to that story !
"I object to your headline. Bull ---- has been a well known source of generating power for centuries. It is well known that burning the cowpies will produce heat that will help keep one warm in winter"

[hmm... we used to have an obscenity filter... -Russ]

 

[chaoseverlasting]

So what is the closest thing to a car running on water that isn't a hoax?

 

[chaoseverlasting]

Earlier, my post count was constant for the longest time, now its decreasing... kinda pointless, but maybe the glitch is a result of something more serious?

 

[Chi Meson]

So what is the closest thing to a car running on water that isn't a hoax?

Cars running on hydrocarbons. Cars running on batteries. Cars running on hydrogen fuel cells. Cars running on photovoltaic cells.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

So what is the closest thing to a car running on water that isn't a hoax?

A boat running on water.

 

[mgb_phys]

[hmm... we used to have an obscenity filter... -Russ]

Sorry didn't realize that bovine exement fuel source was an obscenity.
In my first amendment defence - I was quoting!

 

[Chi Meson]

A boat running on water.

Touche!

 

[russ_watters]

Earlier, my post count was constant for the longest time, now its decreasing... kinda pointless, but maybe the glitch is a result of something more serious?

This thread was moved to General Discussion. Posts in GD are not counted toward your post count.

 

[edward]

The secret to the water powered car

Actually there is no secret. They are using an off the shelf metal hydride process to produce a small amount of hydrogen. Run through a fuel cell it produces an underwhelming 10 amps at 30 volts max.

300 watts? It is a wonder the vehicle even moves.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080613/153276/