Kitten raising advice

[DaveC426913]

This is Sprinkles of Dude*.

*pretty sure I found her dad "Dude", who is not feral yet still has his bits.

Some backstory:

I am new to cats. I am new to kittens. In fact, I am pretty new to pets. I know the basics of how to care for animals; and lots of friend with cats, but the subtleties of kitten behaviour are a bit murky.

Our best estimation is that Sprinkles was born on or about April 24. She was three weeks old and had been abandoned by her feral mom in my work shed. Mom came and took away Sprinkles' three siblings, but never came back for the runt.

So she's had $600 in treatment to fix up some nasty abscesses on her neck from bites of an unknown source. She was on antibiotics, pain meds, Vitamin B and checked for fleas, ear mites and intestinal parasites (all negative).

She was very shaky on her feet - very newborn-like - but now at six weeks she has gone from 13oz. to 21oz. Her wounds have healed. She is full of energy and fearless, climbing up the wall of her pen and making flying leaps down three feet or so with no hesitation. The only reason we try to contain her is because she shares the space with a natural herding dog (a 50lb "giant" Black Spitz, AKA American Eskimo).

She loves cuddles and pets and I am trying to groom her like a mama cat would.

Where we are now:

Naturally, play-fighting is common. Clawing with her death blades and kitten-bites are the order of the day. I am training her to not bite and scratch by intervening with a toy she can take her energy out on. Hopefully, she will take to the toy, and not to my skin. She is just beginning to exhibit hiding, stalking ambush behaviour in her play.

Here is the rationale for my post:

But when I do cuddle with her, and she gets rambunctious, sometimes it seems to cross a line to craziness. She opens her mouth in a pre-emptive bite stance, and lunges at anything in her reach. I don't mean play-lunge, I mean like quick, aggressive lunging. Sometimes accompanied by a meow. Often, she is not looking at the thing, but staring off into the distance. It seems to be more angry than playing (no it's not due to touching of her wounds). She's like this until I settle her down.

I have some theories, take your pick:

1. This is normal kitten behaviour. Not to worry, but condition as-needed.
2. She is getting over-stimulated. Still normal, but calming her down (such as tossing a towel over her) is the remedy.
3. She is under-stimulated. She needs more attention daily than I am currently giving her.
4. She has been taken from her mama too soon.
5. She is getting high on the catnip that comes in some of her plush toys. This should probably be mitigated.
6. Even though we socialized her at three weeks, she is, technically, still feral, and is reverting to her roots.

Your pick? Advice?

 

[phinds]

The only reason we try to contain her

Good luck with that

I am training her to not bite and scratch by intervening with a toy she can take her energy out on. Hopefully, she will take to the toy, and not to my skin.

Good luck with that

She opens her mouth in a pre-emptive bite stance, and lunges at anything in her reach.

I'd say this is something to watch out for and discourage if it seems overly aggressive. Cats ARE aggressive but kittens usually in a playful way.

1. This is normal kitten behaviour. Not to worry, but condition as-needed.

Good advice.

1. She is getting over-stimulated. Still normal, but calming her down (such as tossing a towel over her) is the remedy.

She's a KITTEN. Overstimulation is pretty much impossible but if the rambunctiousness gets to you I suppose a towel won't hurt.

1. She is under-stimulated. She needs more attention daily than I am currently giving her.

You will NEVER be able to give a kitten more attention that it wants, so chill ...

Good luck Dave. I've alwasy found kittens to be a real joy.

 

[DaveC426913]

She's a KITTEN. Overstimulation is pretty much impossible but if the rambunctiousness gets to you I suppose a towel won't hurt.

Well, I'm thinkin' that a dangly in her face and ticklng her belly and other things in her face, might be winding her up in a bad way.

You will NEVER be able to give a kitten more attention that it wants, so chill ...

Right. This particular theory is speculating that under-stimulation (i.e. too much time in her play pen without interaction) is resulting in wilder, aggressiver behaviour when she's let out for interaction.

As she get a little older, hopefully the wife will get less skittish about having Sprinkles and a 50lb dog in the same space. That should lead to more natural socializing time.

I've just bought a bigger enclosure. It's 4 feet tall, with 5 levels, including a hammock, along with her cat bed and litter tray. Also has a better view of the roonM and elevates her from the floor to a more cat-like throne.

 

[Baluncore]

Her mother would have picked her up by the back of her neck. You can take the mother's place in the hierarchy by doing the same. Did the neck injuries prevent handling her in that way, and do they still? That may delay her submission, but you must dominate and get her respect, if she is to learn not to bite and scratch people.

Was she picked up by some hostile animal and shaken by the neck? Is that a trauma she must be treated for, before she can submit willingly to that form of control? Withdraw continuous food, pick her up by the back of her neck and place her where she can reach her food. That will make you her guardian and provider.

If she plays rough, back off and ignore her, do not allow it to continue. While she bites or scratches, put on a big leather welders glove and do not pet her. She will learn not to bite and scratch if she gets no pain response from you. Let the leather glove pick her up by the back of her neck, then look into her eyes, growl, then put her down facing away from you, and turn your back.

To be kind, you must start out cruel, and take early control, then maintain a friendly and non-violent relationship. Once she is tamed, a loud punishing shout, given immediately, as she hurts you, will be sufficient to restore and maintain acceptable play boundaries.

 

[berkeman]

I'm definitely no kitten training expert, but I have interacted with many kittens and cats over the years. There have only been a couple/three that turned out to be overly aggressive, and I have the scars to show for that.

My inclination would be to try to tire out the kitten without the opportunity to bite and claw very much. A laser pen would be a good option IMO, since the kitten will not be able to bite or claw the hardwood floor or walls much. Tire the little one out and then apply the petting and belly rubs.

The second-to-worst kitten/cat that I've been with belonged to the roommate of a girlfriend many years ago. It liked to play aggressively and bite pretty hard, and being a 20-something male I was fine with playing aggressively with it since it seemed to like it. The problem was that the cat felt free to attack me pretty hard whenever it felt like hard playing, and at least one time it surprised me out of nowhere and jumped on my lower leg with a hard bite and all claws digging in. I didn't have time to think about it and responded with a randori kick to the side (JuJitsu technique), which launched it a few feet into an adjacent wall. It was a knee-jerk reaction without thought, but (you guessed it) my girlfriend's roommate saw it happen and proceeded to ask my why I was kicking her cat. Not a good scene...

 

[DaveC426913]

Her mother would have picked her up by the back of her neck. You can take the mother's place in the hierarchy by doing the same. Did the neck injuries prevent handling her in that way, and do they still?

I have studiously avoided doing that since it was discovered. I did pick her up by the nape for the first week, yes.

I do not want to put any undue strain on her neck. That's exactly where her injuries are.

That may delay her submission, but you must dominate and get her respect, if she is to learn not to bite and scratch people.

Did not know I had to exhibit dominance or gain her respect. I do preen her and brush her, whetger she wants it or not. I know mama cats will preen their kittens with blatant disregard for the kittens' wishes.

Was she picked up by some hostile animal and shaken by the neck?

We do not know. I doubt it was her mama (the vet technician doubted it), but it could have been. I would have put my money on a coon.

Is that a trauma she must be treated for, before she can submit willingly to that form of control?

I did not know it was a form of control. But I'd like to find alternates, if possible.

Withdraw continuous food, pick her up by the back of her neck and place her where she can reach her food. That will make you her guardian and provider.

Well, she's not generally aggressive. 99% of the time, she is very friendly and perfectly kitten-like; it is only when I take her out and put her on my chest for some stimulation and playtime.

And it's not like it's out-of-control; I'm probably just borrowing trouble. I am only concerned about jher future behaviour.

If she plays rough, back off and ignore her, do not allow it to continue.

I could do this. Unfortunately, ignoring her isn't exactly a punishment. Because if I leave her alone for longer than ten seconds, off the couch she will go, and off to explore the room and I'll never see her again.

While she bites or scratches, put on a big leather welders glove and do not pet her. She will learn not to bite and scratch if she gets no pain response from you.

I'm not sure this is the right approach. I think it would encourage her to bite and scratch as a usual form of play. From what I've read, you're supposed to discourage this type of play, not ignore it.

Let the leather glove pick her up by the back of her neck, then look into her eyes, growl, then put her down facing away from you, and turn your back.

I could try that.

But I don't need the glove. It's not like she's actually injuring me. It's cute. Now. But it won't be if I let her keep doing it as she grows.

 

[DaveC426913]

My inclination would be to try to tire out the kitten without the opportunity to bite and claw very much. A laser pen would be a good option IMO, since the kitten will not be able to bite or claw the hardwood floor or walls much. Tire the little one out and then apply the petting and belly rubs.

I am not sure it is possible to tire out a kitten.

I have reservations about laser pointers with animals. Much as I'd love to have one, I worry that it is far too easy to damage their eyes. All it takes is a second of the animal looking into the laser. (I think).



I should say, I'm not dealing with an "aggressive kitten" here. It's just an occasional behavior I'd like to get on top of before it gets ingrained.

 

[256bits]

I should say, I'm not dealing with an "aggressive kitten" here. It's just an occasional behavior I'd like to get on top of before it gets ingrained.

It is kind of par for the course for a kitten and young cat. They stare, tense up and then just jump on your toes, or whatever happens to fancy them at the moment. Iam am not sure what the meow is about, they generally are quiet.
If the cat doesn't and kindof looks like it is hissing and retreating, then it is probably just playing, but its form of play is different than what you consider play. For your cat, it might be out of the ordinary.

I have often wondered when two cats, or kittens, jump around at each other, they don't seem to bite or scratch, but with humans they do. Perhaps scratch and bite it back to show you can give as good as it can. Sounds funny, but one girl did that to a pup that kept biting - she took a paw and bit back - the pup seemed to be gentler after that, the chance she took.

Putting a blanket over it is still play, survival mode. They like hiding in boxes, in between cushions, and tight places, so as to go undetected to some kind of imaginary prey. I think you have to deal with the odd behavior direct on, instead of pretending to be kind to cool the critter off.

Training for animals is not my specialty, so take with grain of salt what I say.

PS Two cats play fighting.
The bottom one has the advantage, as can use all feet to rip out the flesh of the other.
For dogs, in a fight, lying on the back is submissive. For a cat, not so.

 

[DaveC426913]

7. Nicotine Contact high, from cigar residue on my skin.

 

[DaveC426913]

It is kind of par for the course for a kitten and young cat. They stare, tense up and then just jump on your toes, or whatever happens to fancy them at the moment. Iam am not sure what the meow is about, they generally are quiet.
If the cat doesn't and kindof looks like it is hissing and retreating, then it is probably just playing, but its form of play is different than what you consider play. For your cat, it might be out of the ordinary.

No hissing or retreating.

Funny though. When I first discovered the brood in the shed, and they were still afraid, they tried to hiss, but it wasn't a hiss, it was like a cute little pop of an explosion. More like popping the lid on a can of (uncarbonized) iced tea, or bubble wrap popping. So cute.

I have often wondered when two cats, or kittens, jump around at each other, they don't seem to bite or scratch, but with humans they do.

Maybe the difference between fur and skin?

The bottom one has the advantage, as can use all feet to rip out the flesh of the other.
For dogs, in a fight, lying on the back is submissive. For a cat, not so.

This much I know.

 

[DaveC426913]

I am coming to terms with the concept that all kittens need to be trained to be gentle. It's not their natural tendency.

This is usually done by their mom, who will have no compunctions about knocking them around like a bowling pin when they get too bitey. But, being separated from their mama at 3-4 weeks is normally way too early, and so that task falls to me.

I am finding her very responsive to my voice. A sharp 'no' tends to quickly mitigate the biteyness. But if not, a spritz from the spritzer will do it. Sometimes I don't even need to spritz her, just bringing the spritzer into her vision will reset her.

Frankly, I am astonished how quickly she is developing. I'm used to human babies, where weeks and months will go by between milestones. This kitten's milestones are daily.

 

[DennisN]

@DaveC426913 :

 

[DaveC426913]

 

[Averagesupernova]

From experience I can tell you that kittens raised without being able to play with litter mates will never be a 'normal' cat. Even worse is a kitten raised by a human with a bottle before they are able to drink or eat solid foods. They are definitely strange cats when grown up. It's a lot of work. I know someone who has done it. The best companions are kittens that grew up playing with their litter mates, raised by their mother and all this while around humans.

 

[DaveC426913]

From experience I can tell you that kittens raised without being able to play with litter mates will never be a 'normal' cat. Even worse is a kitten raised by a human with a bottle before they are able to drink or eat solid foods. They are definitely strange cats when grown up.

Define 'strange'.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Define 'strange'.

Some of the behaviors you are describing. They learn the manners that we have become accustomed to by their litter mates and mother. Too much biting, they get swatted by mom or bit back by siblings. Without that they developed behaviors that we consider inappropriate. Read about feral children. It's the same thing from a different perspective.
-
You may think you can substitute the presence of other cats with yourself. It's very difficult if not impossible to do that well.

 

[DaveC426913]

Some of the behaviors you are describing. They learn the manners that we have become accustomed to by their litter mates and mother. Too much biting, they get swatted by mom or bit back by siblings. Without that they developed behaviors that we consider inappropriate. Read about feral children. It's the same thing from a different perspective.
-
You may think you can substitute the presence of other cats with yourself. It's very difficult if not impossible to do that well.

Ah I see. Yes, that is the very crux of this thread.

I am hoping that I have become aware of the issue early enough and am taking appropriate corrective measures. If I were not aware that I need to train my kitten, I might have just thought her biting and scratching were cute and let it go too long.

But I am now actively discouraging her from overly-aggressive behaviour. Voice commands do seem to be effective but when they are not, I have a spray bottle. And if that doesn't stop it, back into the cage she goes, where she gets no attention.

She does seem to be getting the hint. Her play biting is mostly just sort of mouthing now. Although it doesn't take long for her to get wound up. She still get a wild look in her eyes after a few minutes, and starts eyeing my hands like they are giant pieces of tasty meat. That's when play time is over.


The other challenge is a neurotic 50lb dog who is not sure what to do with a kitten on-the-loose in her space. This makes quality training time with the kitten doubly challenging.

Been trying to kill two birds with one stone. Dogs lies down on mat. I lure kitten to play with me under dog's nose. Every time dog ignores kitten, dog gets a treat.

I may start another thread on advice for training a mature dog. I have just learned the term "resource guarding". Unfortunately, the resource that the dog is guarding is my wife. (Not from me, but from others.)

 

[Averagesupernova]

She still get a wild look in her eyes after a few minutes, and starts eyeing my hands like they are giant pieces of tasty meat.

That's typical kitten behavior. I have wasted away more time watching kittens play than I care to admit. They'll do that with anything that is convenient. A kitten can turn just about anything into a toy for at least a few minutes. Often times it's their moms tail or the litter mates. That part is a good thing. They can be left to themselves to work it all out. When those things are not there to play with the next convenient thing that moves is fair game. I don't need to tell you what that is or could/would be.

 

[DaveC426913]

That's typical kitten behavior. I have wasted away more time watching kittens play than I care to admit. They'll do that with anything that is convenient. A kitten can turn just about anything into a toy for at least a few minutes.

Well, I see a distinction between play-fighting and this level of aggression.

 

[DaveE]

I may start another thread on advice for training a mature dog. I have just learned the term "resource guarding". Unfortunately, the resource that the dog is guarding is my wife. (Not from me, but from others.)

Hire a good positive reinforcement dog trainer. This is often a difficult problem that isn't well addressed by conventional "obedience" type training. It's more an emotional/psychological/environment issue. Nearly always based on anxiety. This isn't a "make my dog do what I say" issue, it's about modifying their environment and expectations and addressing the root cause. A vet behaviorist would be the best choice, but they are hard to find. Meds can help (Prozac, etc.), talk to your vet.

A good short term response is the old dog training maxim "avoid situations that result in your dog practicing behaviors you don't like". The more you see it the worse it will get. He does those behaviors because they work, to some extent. He was already worried/upset before you saw the behavior; he is probably seeking safety from a scary situation. His reaction is telling you that you shouldn't have made him choose aggression as his exit strategy.

You need professional advice for this. Key word is behavior modification, not dog training.

 

[DaveC426913]

Hire a good positive reinforcement dog trainer. This is often a difficult problem that isn't well addressed by conventional "obedience" type training. It's more an emotional/psychological/environment issue. Nearly always based on anxiety. This isn't a "make my dog do what I say" issue, it's about modifying their environment and expectations and addressing the root cause. A vet behaviorist would be the best choice, but they are hard to find. Meds can help (Prozac, etc.), talk to your vet.

Yes. We've had her in an agility training, which did help her with some things. (She is a "working" dog by nature, so she does need a "job".)

This last time, we had her in training to deal with socialization and confidence issues. She was, of course, perfectly lovely.

A good short term response is the old dog training maxim "avoid situations that result in your dog practicing behaviors you don't like".

The problem is that, apparently, one of the primary "situations" is the presence of my wife. She gets weird* about other people when she is around.

* more weird. She's kinda weird about most other people. Though not all.

 

[DaveE]

This last time, we had her in training to deal with socialization and confidence issues.

For issues like this training isn't something you go and do sometimes and then finish. It should be a constant and never ending way of interacting with your dog and the environments they are exposed to.

The problem is that, apparently, one of the primary "situations" is the presence of my wife. She gets weird* about other people when she is around.

I think a behavior pro needs to actually see this in person or videos. It's a complex issue.

She is a "working" dog by nature, so she does need a "job".

Yes, that's important for many dogs. It's great that you recognize that. A great job for behavior issues is Nose Work (searching). It's easier for people than sports that require special equipment or locations. The dog gains confidence because they are engaged in something they naturally want to do with minimal micromanagement from the humans. It is sort of the opposite of obedience training or agility that way.

 

[DaveC426913]

For issues like this training isn't something you go and do sometimes and then finish.

It should be a constant and never ending way of interacting with your dog and the environments they are exposed to.

Well, of course. They set up the behaviour and associations and we reinforce them daily.

Yes, that's important for many dogs. It's great that you recognize that. A great job for behavior issues is Nose Work (searching).

Yes, we should get back to the game. We hide treats for her all over the house and she goes wild finding them.

And I have to keep reminding myself that she's had some tumultuous times, going from one owner to another for a few years, now back to us, but now we are in a different house, and she's on different foods, etc. Pets thrive on routine. And routine is not something she's gotten a lot of. It may take time.

 

[DaveE]

We hide treats for her all over the house and she goes wild finding them.

Excellent! Later you'll want to move that game into the rest of the world to gain confidence in scarier places. This IS Nose Work, don't be put off by all of the competition dog sport side of it. It's just searching games with SLOWLY increasing difficulty. Always based on independent searching, you never* help them figure it out; i.e. your problem dude, I just put the stuff out, you have to find it. That's the confidence building part; I can do this myself, this is my game, not yours.

* OK sometimes we help in subtle ways, but you'll want an instructor to help you do that correctly or you'll screw it up. Better to just let them fail. They fail all the time when they're chasing squirrels in the back yard, it's ok.

And I have to keep reminding myself that she's had some tumultuous times, going from one owner to another for a few years, now back to us, but now we are in a different house, and she's on different foods, etc. Pets thrive on routine. And routine is not something she's gotten a lot of. It may take time.

This is the common source of RG, and other related anxiety issues. She's desperately seeking a safe situation and might fight to preserve that. She likely thinks it's your wife that provides that safe feeling. It really doesn't sound that bad compared to other rescues I know. My guy is the same, unknown history, in addition to me he has also guarded places and toys and has some SA (separation anxiety). But with consistent work he is much much better now.

I'm really glad to hear that you are finally providing her a good stable home. Good on 'ya mate! I think she deserves that.

Java - 5 year old? Lab/GSD mix

 

[DaveE]

BTW, ask me to help if you do decide you want to hook up with a Nose Work instructor (that's my retirement job too). I can probably help find one. This isn't the behavior pro though, it's two different things.

 

[DaveC426913]

BTW, ask me to help if you do decide you want to hook up with a Nose Work instructor (that's my retirement job too). I can probably help find one. This isn't the behavior pro though, it's two different things.

"Nose work instructor" :rolls that around on the tongue for a bit:

 

[DaveC426913]

Java - 5 year old? Lab/GSD mix

For a second, I thought you had gotten hold of a pic of my dog Luna (particularly the upturned tail, a hallmark of Spitzes):

 

[DaveC426913]

Tell me you have a kitten without telling me you have a kitten.

(You should see my ankles...)

 

[symbolipoint]

Topical drift is happening here. DaveC42.... wants to manage his new KITTEN, Sprinkles.
(Or must I write, DaveC42.... wants to manage his new kitten, Sprinkles. ?)

 

[DaveC426913]

Topic was always about kitten. Dog is merely a complicating factor.

 

[DaveC426913]

Kitten is now on half wet food and half kibble, three times a day. Eats it all up.

Donning my Googles, I see "...young kittens (under 3 months) should have free access to dry food and several meals of wet food per day."

I'm little worried about giving it free access to dried food.

It currently spends some of its time in a (very large multi-level) cage. I am concerned, if I put a dish of dried food in there it will just keep eating.

I know supposedly cats don't tend to gorge themselves, but I'm not sure with this cat.

I guess what I should do is put a bowl of kibble in its cage and monitor how much it's eating.

According to this, a 2lb. kitten should get about 160kCal/day. I can do the math on the wet and dry foods and see what I come up with.

 

[DaveC426913]

TEN SECONDS!
TEN SECONDS!

For seven weeks, this kitten has been supervised every second of the day when she is outside her cage.
Today, I stepped out of the room. I even said to "Stay out of trouble!"

I wasn't gone ten seconds!

CRASH!

I ran back in to find her sitting, innocently in my spot. She had found the most expensive, most fragile thing in the entire house and managed to knock it onto the floor. My laptop.

 

[berkeman]

 

[DaveC426913]

What do my laptop's outer cases have that so fascinates my kitten?

I have two laptops, both with brushed grey cases; one PC, one Mac. My kitten seems to have a thing for "making biscuits" on them. Doesn't seem to be about heat. One is off and cold.

She doesn't do this anywhere else.

 

[Bystander]

What do my laptop's outer cases have that so fascinates my kitten?

I have two laptops, both with brushed grey cases; one PC, one Mac. My kitten seems to have a thing for "making biscuits" on them. Doesn't seem to be about heat. One is off and cold.

She doesn't do this anywhere else.

By all means encourage the behaviour---save yourself a fortune in upholstery; it's probably an idiosyncratic preference built into his/her nervous system.

 

[Rive]

What do my laptop's outer cases have that so fascinates my kitten?

Likely there is some scent on them she likes.

 

[DennisN]

What do my laptop's outer cases have that so fascinates my kitten?

I have two laptops, both with brushed grey cases; one PC, one Mac. My kitten seems to have a thing for "making biscuits" on them. Doesn't seem to be about heat. One is off and cold.

She doesn't do this anywhere else.

Could be some scent, as @Rive said.

Or maybe she has noticed you are using them often and is interested in them and/or wants your attention.

My cat has a habit of lying in front of the tablet to get maximal attention (photo here).
It's hilarious .

It's even more hilarious when she straddles the tablet with her front legs in front of it and back legs behind it, while I am lying and reading on the tablet. Hmmm, I should try to get a photo of it, I laugh whenever she does this .

My first cat (who sadly is not alive anymore*) sometimes laid down on open books I was reading in bed.

* Though he got a long and good life; he became 18 years old.

 

[berkeman]

Maybe you should get her a gravity feeder...

 

[DaveC426913]

Man, I hate being micro-managed...