Kitten raising advice

[pinball1970]

As with dogs: don't blame the pet, blame the owner.

No one seems to be doing that though, see above.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Where I come from in the US hawks, bald eagles, coyotes, etc prey on the cats. If the feral and outdoor cats that keep the mice and rats cleaned up leave, I will have something worse. I've read that fox will take a cat but I can't say from experience. Right now the fox are close enough I don't need them moving in closer to get rats when the cats are gone.
-
Forgot the one I hate the most. Racoons will also kill young cats.

 

[pinball1970]

Where I come from in the US hawks, bald eagles, coyotes, etc prey on the cats

Can we have some? We currently have 12 million cats killing 270 wild animals per year.
We send over some Patterdale terriers in return.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Can we have some? We currently have 12 million cats killing 270 wild animals per year.
We send over some Patterdale terriers in return.

You really did miss the point of my post. What do you suppose the coyotes, etc will eat when the cats are gone? Right now the cats survive on the rodents. Eagles and hawks do too, as well as a cat now and then. Coyotes and fox mostly survive on rabbits, gophers, etc and now and then a cat. With the cats gone we can expect the rodent population to explode which will draw the fox and coyotes in closer since rodents (not all of them) reside closer to buildings. I don't need nor want those critters up close to where I reside.

 

[pinball1970]

You really did miss the point of my post

I did not. I made a reference to domestic cats killing birds and small mammals, they also kill reptiles and fish in the UK. They are not particularly efficient at killing rats and when a problem arises with rats and other rodents in premises including factories, warehousing and farms we do not go out and buy a cat to solve the problem. That is not the efficient or humane way to do it.

I never mentioned wild/feral cats.

I am not aware of your finely balanced eco system relying on cats, I just pointed out domestic cats kill about 2 billion birds in the US every year.

 

[Averagesupernova]

I did not. I made a reference to domestic cats killing birds and small mammals, they also kill reptiles and fish in the UK. They are not particularly efficient at killing rats and when a problem arises with rats and other rodents in premises including factories, warehousing and farms we do not go out and buy a cat to solve the problem. That is not the efficient or humane way to do it.

I never mentioned wild/feral cats.

I am not aware of your finely balanced eco system relying on cats, I just pointed out domestic cats kill about 2 billion birds in the US every year.

As I often say, you do you and I'll do me. Maybe that's not a familiar thing across the pond. I can tell you this much: Our cats generally have no problem with rats. And I fail to see the concern of a humane way to deal with rats or mice. The preferred method (not mine) to deal with mice in the US seems to be sticky traps. I can't think of a less humane way to take care of mice but I don't really care. It's just an observation. I question the validity of the 2 billion birds per year. A quick Google tells me 3.12 million square miles on the Continental US. That amounts 1 kill per acre per year. Google also tells me there are between 75 and 90 million cats in the US. That's over 23,000 birds per cat per year. Even if the numbers are off 10:1 that means each cat kill 2300 birds per year. 6 birds per day per cat. Sorry, not buying it.

 

[Rive]

I've read that fox will take a cat but I can't say from experience.

It's kind of similar as how cats are with rats. Happens, but not too often - the disparity is not big enough, and an adult cat can do some really ugly work on the front parts of a fox, so an experienced fox will rather think twice...

We currently have 12 million cats killing 270 wild animals per year.

These issues are lot more complicated than just those numbers. If you have ten thousand small birds then around fifty thousand of them (!) needs to die yearly to maintain a stable population. And the only thing happens when there is not enough dying is that some plague or famine will take the excess a bit later (happens regularly with tits, for example - feeding and population increase made the 10+ yearly recurring avian pox kind of ever-present here...)
And there are no regular wild predators for the niche of cats (active within our 'humanized' environment). In our neighborhood it's either cats or pox. Or famine. Or some parasites, accidents and so on.

On the other side, cats also has an insane reproduction rate. The things above are true on them too, so it's either leaving them on their own devices and accepting the natural loss rate, or controlling them some way: regardless of the birds.

 

[Averagesupernova]

It's kind of similar as how cats are with rats. Happens, but not too often - the disparity is not big enough, and an adult cat can do some really ugly work on the front parts of a fox, so an experienced fox will rather think twice...

Agreed, except the rat part. I've seen a cat take rats out quite easily. That's not to say half grown cats will not exercise caution. Full grown cats in my experience have no trouble.
-
The thing with rats is that they are generally smart enough to move off the premises if the cats start controlling them. A rat is a pretty good meal for the cat so unless there are large numbers of cats that suddenly move in to control an existing rat population a small number of rats are actually killed compared to the general population. The remaining rats simply move to a better area.

 

[Rive]

Full grown cats in my experience have no trouble.

Some cats has it (the genetics part of hunting dangerous or bigger prey) in them (consequently sometimes half the street has it in them...), but in general hunt of this kind does not happens too frequently.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Some cats has it (the genetics part of hunting dangerous or bigger prey) in them (consequently sometimes half the street has it in them...), but in general hunt of this kind does not happens too frequently.

I'll agree there is a huge difference in cats when it comes to their ability to survive. I guess nature has probably selected out the poor ones in my case.

 

[pinball1970]

As I often say, you do you and I'll do me. Maybe that's not a familiar thing across the pond.

It is familiar but I do not see the relevance here.

I question the validity of the 2 billion birds per year.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380?WT.mc_id=FBK_NCOMMS#abstract

 

[pinball1970]

Useless. They learn fast, and after a week those bells won't give a sound during hunts anymore (but they can actually endanger the cat, just as those flea-collars can).

Not the advice given here,

" we estimate that a minimum of 0.3 million birds are released annually by cat owners but subsequently die. Substantial welfare improvements could be achieved if owners were more prepared to adopt strategies to limit hunting behaviour (eg fitting cats with collars and bells)"

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...habilitators/F19BF2AAC8E4D5A884F3F2711927BB7F

 

[pinball1970]

If you have ten thousand small birds then around fifty thousand of them (!) needs to die yearly to maintain a stable population

We agree there, one thing cats can do well, is keep populations down.

"Feral cats on islands are responsible for at least 14% global bird, mammal, and reptile extinctions and are the principal threat to almost 8% of critically endangered birds, mammals, and reptiles."

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2486.2011.02464.x

"Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals. Scientifically sound conservation and policy intervention is needed to reduce this impact."

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380?WT.mc_id=FBK_NCOMMS#abstract

 

[pinball1970]

Indecisive!

I have posted a few studies to @Rive and @Averagesupernova, have a look at those too.

 

[Rive]

Not the advice given here

Not an article about the effectiveness of bell collars.
Regarding the scientific status of the matter you should take a look at the relevant wiki article (not primarily as a direct source, but as a general insight on the 'depth' of the sources available...)

Feral cats on islands

Species in different environments brings different impact and depending on the situation may count as invasive. Yep.
...but UK and US won't be good just as some really big islands, I guess...

Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought

UK will do?
Feral cat numbers supposedly declining
Bird number also declining
Primary bird issues

For me the situation actually suggests that local hotspots created by not enough predators and misunderstood 'protection' (unnecessary feeding) may affect the disease situation, across multiple species (including not directly affected ones)

 

[pinball1970]

effectiveness of bell collars

This article mentions the points you raised and possible solutions.

https://scienceinsights.org/why-do-people-put-bells-on-cats-and-should-you/

"Bells aren’t the only option, and for bird protection specifically, they’re not even the most effective one. A few alternatives have been studied:

Bright collar covers: The Birdsbesafe collar cover is a brightly colored fabric sleeve that fits over a cat’s collar. Because birds have excellent color vision, the vivid colors act as a visual warning. Studies found cats wearing these covers brought home 61% fewer birds, outperforming bells. The tradeoff is that they don’t help with mammals, which rely more on hearing and smell than color vision.

Neoprene bibs: The CatBib is a small flap that hangs from the collar and physically interferes with a cat’s ability to use its paws during a pounce. Studies found it prevented 81% of successful bird catches and 45% of mammal catches, making it one of the most effective options tested.

Electronic sound devices: Some collars emit a beep at regular intervals rather than relying on movement to trigger a sound. These performed similarly to bells in studies, reducing hunting success at roughly the same rate.

Combining methods, like using a bell alongside a bright collar cover, can address both bird and mammal prey more comprehensively than any single approach.”

Also this but I only have the abstract. A bit of a mixed bag.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...mestic_Cats_in_a_Continental_European_Setting

"Our results are in line with previous findings from Australia, the United States, and the United Kingdom and highlight the great potential of visual and acoustic cues in reducing hunting success in domestic cats also in Continental Europe. On the other hand, our result show that the number of prey brought home by cats overestimates their hunting bag, if scavenging is not considered."

 

[Rive]

A bit of a mixed bag.

A bit worse than that, at least in the present context: the investigation was based on only two week long periods.

This article

What is that 'scienceinsights' thing, actually?

 

[pinball1970]

A bit worse than that, at least in the present context: the investigation was based on only two week long periods.

This is more comprehensive.
Break away collars, paper collars discussed briefly, at least wild life consideration are discussed.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787822000867

What is that 'scienceinsights' thing, actually?

First time seeing it, thought it was relevant and the points were not crazy. Possibly ideas taken from published papers.

 

[Averagesupernova]

I've put as much effort into this as I care to. The claim of 2 billion bird deaths a year in the USA caused by cats is absurd and I've pointed out why.
-
In jury duty in the US jurors are allowed to dismiss testimony from a specific witness if they consider the testimony to be unbelievable. Not just the parts that are unbelievable, anything the specific witness said. It's as if that specific witness never testified. I'm exercising the same thing here. I'm not going to put effort into this discussion. I have ideas of why these inflated numbers exist but I'm not going to go into it here.

 

[DaveC426913]

I actually detest cats Dave. They are selfish predators that decimate wild life, have fleas, hair, feces....

As with dogs: don't blame the pet, blame the owner.

No one seems to be doing that though, see above.

"I actually detest cats because..." sure makes it sound like it's the cats taking the brunt of your ire...

 

[symbolipoint]

(Something is wrong with the display and sequences in reading links in/from the Alerts.)

I had to look for and find post #55. pinball1970 reminded me of a link which I still did not read, just after I posted a single word message of "Indecisive". pinball 1970 asked a question there, but I not being sure if I am ready to say "yes" or "no", cannot decide; so I gave the message of "Indecisive".

 

[pinball1970]

"I actually detest cats because..." sure makes it sound like it's the cats taking the brunt of your ire...

Every single point I have posted I have put a scientific study and a few articles to go with it.
The title is "Kitten raising advice" yes? My advice besides don't get one ;) Is keep it in doors and consider one of the collar options. Cats escape.

I will bow out now, before I cause further upset.

 

[DaveC426913]

Cats escape.

She did escape once. We found her within 30 seconds, six feet from the door, entranced by a pile of the dog's poop.

I will bow out now, before I cause further upset.

No upset. Just friendly banter. Just bustin' yer b*lls.