KK Thermal Physics Ch4: A Peculiar Model of Photons

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the modeling of photons in the context of the Stefan-Boltzmann law of radiation as presented in KK Thermal Physics, specifically addressing the peculiarities of using a one-dimensional simple harmonic oscillator (SHO) model versus a three-dimensional model. Participants explore the implications of these modeling choices and their relation to quantum field theory.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why photons are modeled as a 1D SHO with energy given by \(\epsilon = n \hbar \omega\) while the mode distribution is based on a 3D box condition.
  • Another participant clarifies that each individual field mode is an independent 1D SHO, leading to a multi-dimensional system rather than a simple 3D SHO.
  • A participant raises the concern that the ground state of the system, given the infinite number of modes, would also be infinite, noting that KK ignores zero-point energy.
  • Responses indicate that it is common practice to subtract the ground level energy, introducing the concept of renormalization in quantum field theory.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the ad hoc nature of the renormalization process, while others acknowledge its effectiveness despite mathematical inconsistencies.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the complexities and peculiarities of modeling photons and the implications of renormalization, but there is no consensus on the clarity or soundness of the mathematical foundations of quantum field theory.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the assumptions regarding the modeling of photons and the treatment of infinite ground state energies, as well as the unresolved mathematical rigor in quantum field theory.

Euclid
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I am looking in KK Thermal Physics ch4 at what I assume to be the standard derivation of the SB law of radiation and I notice something peculiar.
On the one hand, they model the photon as a 1D SHO with energy given by
[tex]\epsilon = n \hbar \omega[/tex]
On the ohter hand, the distribution of the modes (omega) is given by the condition for a standing EM wave in a 3D box ([tex]\omega =\pi c \sqrt{ n^2 + m^2 + l^2} /L[/tex]). My question is, why does one not assume a 3D SHO model for the photon with
[tex]\epsilon = (n+m+l) \hbar \omega[/tex]?
It seems odd to model the photon as a SHO, but only partially. What's the full story?
 
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Euclid said:
I am looking in KK Thermal Physics ch4 at what I assume to be the standard derivation of the SB law of radiation and I notice something peculiar.
On the one hand, they model the photon as a 1D SHO with energy given by
[tex]\epsilon = n \hbar \omega[/tex]
On the ohter hand, the distribution of the modes (omega) is given by the condition for a standing EM wave in a 3D box ([tex]\omega =\pi c \sqrt{ n^2 + m^2 + l^2} /L[/tex]). My question is, why does one not assume a 3D SHO model for the photon with
[tex]\epsilon = (n+m+l) \hbar \omega[/tex]?
It seems odd to model the photon as a SHO, but only partially. What's the full story?

You are confusing two different "quantisations" here. EACH individual FIELD MODE is an independent 1-D SHO. So the whole system is not a 3-D SHO, but a multi billion-fold dimensional SHO (infinite, in fact). In free space, all plane waves are field modes. But in a box, with boundary conditions, the field modes are quantized (in classical EM). Each of these modes can be described classically by a "harmonic oscillator" with a certain frequency (fixed by the mode) and a certain amplitude/phase (which is free in classical physics). It is THIS harmonic oscillator which will be quantized. So for EACH field mode, we have an oscillator, which, after quantization will take on the famous
E = n(mode) omega(mode) x hbar.

We say that n(mode) is the NUMBER OF PHOTONS in this mode.

So a photon (of a certain type = associated with a certain classical mode of oscillation of the EM field) is nothing else but a quantization step of the associated SHO.

So one quantization is classical, and gives you the modes (and hence the omega(mode)) ,and the other quantization is quantum-mechanical, and gives you the ladder of the oscillator associated with the mode. You have a quantum-mechanical oscillator PER MODE.

Edit:
such an infinite set of harmonic oscillators, associated to classical field modes, is called a QUANTUM FIELD.
 
Very cool. Thanks for the reply.

Since there are an infinite number of modes, won't the ground state of that system be infinite? It's interesting that KK ignores the zero level energy...
 
Euclid said:
Very cool. Thanks for the reply.

Since there are an infinite number of modes, won't the ground state of that system be infinite? It's interesting that KK ignores the zero level energy...

YES.

So what people do is: they subtract this ground level. It's a first taste of renormalization... in quantum field theory, we don't stop subtracting infinities from infinities...
 
This is very interesting. It seems totally ad hoc. But the renormalization process works?
 
Euclid said:
This is very interesting. It seems totally ad hoc. But the renormalization process works?

Yes... it is not *totally* ad hoc, but it is not very clean either. Quantum field theory is mathematically not sound, but as you say, it works. That is, the fundamental mathematical constructions can be shown not to exist (!), but the derived calculational procedures work quite amazingly well. That's why people then said that the actual theory was the "set of calculational procedures" and that the (non-existing) objects one was trying to calculate was just an inspiration. And then it turns out that even these calculational procedures are mathematically ill-defined, except for the first approximations.

However, these first approximations give amazingly accurate numerical results.
 

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