Lebesgue Measurable but not Borel sets.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the existence of Lebesgue measurable sets that are not Borel sets, exploring the construction and properties of such sets. Participants examine the implications of cardinality and the process of generating sets within the context of measure theory and set theory.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines a reasoning process involving outer measure and the Cantor set to argue for the existence of Lebesgue measurable sets that are not Borel.
  • Another participant provides a detailed explanation of the construction of Borel sets using transfinite induction and cardinality arguments, suggesting that there are only 2^{\aleph_0} Borel sets.
  • A reference is provided for an explicit construction of a non-Borel Lebesgue set.
  • A participant expresses interest in references for constructing models of the reals of different cardinalities, indicating a broader interest in set theory.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the construction of non-Borel sets, and multiple viewpoints regarding the cardinality of Borel sets and the existence of specific measurable sets are presented.

Contextual Notes

Some arguments rely on axiomatic set theory principles and the properties of cardinality, which may not be universally accepted or understood among all participants. The discussion includes references to specific mathematical constructs that may require further clarification.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying measure theory, set theory, and the properties of Lebesgue and Borel sets, as well as individuals exploring the foundations of real analysis.

Bacle2
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Hi, All:

I am trying to find a construction of a measurable subset that is not Borel, and ask

for a ref. in this argument ( see the ***) used to show the existence of such sets:

i) Every set of outer measure 0 is measurable, since:

0=m* (S)≥m*(S) , forcing equality.

ii) Every subset of the Cantor set is measurable, by i), and there are 2c=22Aleph_0 such subsets.

iii)*** The process of producing the Fσ , Gδ , Fσδ ,...

produces only 2Aleph_0 sets. ***

iv) Since the 2 cardinalities are different, there must be a set as described in ii), i.e., a Lebesgue-measurable set that is not Borel.

So, questions:

1)How do we show the process in iii) produces only c sets.

2)Anyone know of an actual construction of this set?

Thanks.
 
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This is a bit complicated.
For (i), you are basically asking why there are only 2^{\aleph_0} Borel sets. This is proved in a lot of axiomatic set theory books.

Let me type up the basic idea. You can always ask for more details if you want. Define

\mathcal{A}_1=\{B\subseteq \mathbb{R}~\vert~\text{B is open}\}

If \alpha is an ordinal and if \mathcal{A}_\alpha is defined, then define \mathcal{A}_{\alpha+1} such that
  • If A\in \mathcal{A}_\alpha, then \mathbb{R}\setminus A\in \mathcal{A}_{\alpha+1}.
  • If A_n\in \mathcal{A}_\alpha for n\in \mathbb{N}, then \bigcup_n{A_n}\in \mathcal{A}_{\alpha+1}

If \gamma is a limit ordinal, and A_\alpha is defined for \alpha<\gamma, then define
\mathcal{A}_\gamma=\bigcup_\alpha \mathcal{A}_{\alpha}

It is clear that if \mathcal{B} are the Borel sets, then each \mathcal{A}_\alpha is a subset of \mathcal{B}.

It can easily be proven by transfinite induction that each \mathcal{A}_\alpha with \alpha\leq \omega_1 has only 2^{\aleph_0} sets.

We now show that \mathcal{A}_{\omega_1}=\mathcal{B}. For this, it suffices to show that \mathcal{A}_{\omega_1} is a sigma-algebra containing the open sets. This is not hard to show. Let me show, for example that if A_n\in \mathcal{A}_{\omega_1} for n\in \mathbb{N}, then \bigcup_n{A_n}\in \mathcal{A}_{\omega_1}.

Indeed, if A_n\in \mathcal{A}_{\omega_1}, then there exists an ordinal \alpha_n<\omega_1 such that A_n\in \mathcal{A}_{\alpha_n}. Let \alpha=\sup_n \alpha_n. Since each \alpha_n is countable, it follows that \alpha (as a union of the \alpha_n) is countable as well. So \alpha<\omega_1.
Now, since A_n\in \mathcal{A}_{\alpha_n}\subseteq \mathcal{A}_\alpha for each n, it follows by definition that \bigcup_n A_n \in \mathcal{A}_{\alpha+1}. But since \alpha<\omega_1, we also know that \alpha+1<\omega_1. So we deduce that \bigcup_n A_n\in \mathcal{A}_{\alpha+1}\subseteq \mathcal{A}_{\omega_1}.

For (ii), there is this explicit construction of a non-Borel Lebesgue set: http://planetmath.org/ALebesgueMeasurableButNonBorelSet.html
 
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I see; it's been a while since I saw this. Thanks.
 
Last edited:
Hope it is not too OT, but I wonder if you have a ref. too, for how to

construct models of the reals ( or, more generally, of 1st-order theory in the standard structure of the reals,

for other structures. ) of different cardinalities, re Lowenheim-Skolem. I would like to

avoid forcing if possible. If not, I will post it somewhere else, sorry.

Thanks.

Seriously sorry for bothering you so much; just to tell you I posted this in 'Set Theory ...' forum, so feel free to delete my post if necessary.
 
Last edited:

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