Lensed Quasar Pair: Retaining Point-like Appearance

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phenomenon of lensed quasar pairs, particularly focusing on why these quasars appear point-like rather than exhibiting the expected arc-like distortions associated with gravitational lensing. Participants explore the implications of classical optics and general relativity (GR) in understanding this phenomenon.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how lensed quasars, such as those in the Einstein cross, can maintain a point-like appearance without distortion, suggesting a potential violation of classical optics principles.
  • Others argue that the alignment of the quasar, lensing mass, and observer plays a crucial role in the observed image characteristics, with gravitational lensing capable of producing multiple images without significant distortion.
  • A participant highlights that classical optics typically requires specific conditions to produce point-like images, which may not be met by the complex gravitational fields of galaxies and clusters.
  • Concerns are raised about the mass-to-light ratio of the lensing galaxy and its implications for the lensing hypothesis, questioning whether the observed effects can be attributed to lensing or if they indicate a binary quasar system instead.
  • Some participants assert that the quasars are indeed very point-like due to their emission regions being much smaller than the distances involved, suggesting that any smearing would be minimal but still present.
  • There is a contention regarding the interpretation of redshifts associated with the quasars and their potential ejection from the lensing galaxy, with some participants proposing that intrinsic redshifts could explain the observations.
  • One participant requests evidence for the physical association between the quasars and the lensing galaxy, challenging the notion that the quasars could be ejected from the galaxy's core.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the lensed quasars, with no consensus reached on whether the observed characteristics can be fully explained by gravitational lensing or if alternative explanations, such as binary systems or ejection scenarios, are more plausible.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of gravitational lensing and its dependence on various factors, including alignment and mass distribution, while also noting the limitations of classical optics in explaining the observed phenomena.

  • #31
Nothing wrong with questions, turbo, and they are interesting. We should, however, remain focused on observational evidence. In the case of the Einstein cross, there is a great deal of good evidence it is a gravitational lensing event - emission and absorption lines, microlensing, time delay in brightness fluctuations, and redshift correlations. Physicists are not disturbed by the absence of any apparent distortion in lensed, point-like sources - like a distant quasar. You can recreate this effect with a pinhole camera. I hand polished a short focus Newtonian mirrer once. Pits in the reflective surface can produce these kind of images when viewed off axis. Try some ray traces and see if you can find a configuration that gives multiple, point-like images from a point source. Anyways, I think your point is sufficiently interesting to do some digging... so I spent the evening mining. This is all I came up with so far:

http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Mellier/Mellier2_1.html
Note that for a point-like object like a QSO, the total amplification of light and the image position will be the only observable parameters.

http://astro.ic.ac.uk/Research/Extragal/
A gravitational lens can form multiple images of the source. These are point images for a point source such as a quasar, but a galaxy, being extended, is lensed into arcs or a ring.

http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/research/gravlens/intro/intro.html
If the line of sight to the quasar passes exactly through the galaxy, the symmetry of the system results in the formation of an ``Einstein ring''. If the line of sight is slightly off-centre, this produces multiple point images

http://folk.uio.no/kjetikj/science/master/description.html
Illustrated in above is a typical case of gravitational macrolensing, a galaxy is situated between us and a remote quasar, and we observe several images. In fact, it can be proved that there will be an odd number of images, but also that we will almost always see just an even number of images because one image will be heavily demagnified.
 
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  • #32
Chronos said:
Nothing wrong with questions, turbo, and they are interesting. We should, however, remain focused on observational evidence. In the case of the Einstein cross, there is a great deal of good evidence it is a gravitational lensing event - emission and absorption lines...
Please see the paper I linked above regarding Chandra observations. Object A exhibits broad Fe/Kalpha emission lines and the remaining objects do not. It would be easy to explain how object A might have absorption lines that the other objects do not (using the light-path explanation), but if these are all images of one lensed object, they should all have the same emission spectra, even if the absorption lines differ.

I helped a friend build a deck today - now mining for papers (with heating pads on my old achey knees).
 
  • #33
Will review. I ran across some stuff the other day related to that, but really didn't digest it. No doubt there are lots of ideas lurking about. Physics as usual keeps plenty of escape pods handy - I hope jumping out of your chair did not aggravate your knee issues. Old age is not for the faint of heart. I lugged around a bunch of pool sand bags around yesterday and I'm still breathing hard.
 

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