How Liouville's theorem applies to gravitationally deflected light?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the application of Liouville's theorem in the context of gravitational lensing, particularly how it relates to the conservation of surface brightness of lensed images compared to their sources. Participants explore the implications of this theorem for photons traveling along null geodesics and the complexities involved in understanding the phenomenon.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the mapping between the unlensed source plane and the lensed image plane, emphasizing the role of the Jacobian in expressing area changes due to lensing.
  • The concept of "microlensing" is introduced, where small distortions in brightness are detected, and the relationship between the brightness change and physical parameters is discussed.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about the application of Liouville's theorem in this context, noting that many sources reference it without clear justification.
  • A participant suggests that incorporating visual aids could enhance understanding and attract more responses to the thread.
  • Discussion shifts to Halton Arp's controversial views on quasars and gravitational lensing, with one participant asserting that the four images of the Einstein Cross are from the same quasar, countering Arp's perspective.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on Halton Arp's theories regarding quasars and gravitational lensing, with some supporting the mainstream understanding that the images in the Einstein Cross originate from the same quasar, while others reference Arp's alternative theories. The application of Liouville's theorem remains a point of uncertainty, with no consensus on its justification in the context of gravitational lensing.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the historical context of Arp's theories and the ongoing debates surrounding gravitational lensing, indicating that the discussion is influenced by differing interpretations of observational data and theoretical implications.

Eduardo_GV
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It is customary in gravitational lensing problems, to project both the background source and the deflecting mass (e.g. a background quasar, and a foreground galaxy acting as a lens) in a plane.

Then, the lensing problem can be regarded as a mapping between the unlensed source plane, and the lensed image plane. In such transformations, the Jacobian evaluated at a point of the source plane, expresses how an infinitesimal area located around that point increases.

Lens mass and mass distribution, relative positions and distances involved give rise to different scenarios. The special case in which the distortions are too small to be resolved by telescopes, is called "microlensing regime". Typically, a dark, unseen object like a floating planet, happens to cross transversally in front of a background star.

The image of the background star suffers amplification and distortions that are unresolved, but a change in brightness is detected, with a very typical light curve shape. The measured light curve of a microlensing event can be related to physical parameters of the problem, because the change in brightness of a lensed image can be modeled simply by dividing the area of the lensed image by that of the unlensed source image. If that can be done, it is because the mean surface flux of the image equals that of the source.

That is, gravitational lensing can make a tiny source appear bigger in the sky but in plain terms, every square inch of the image has the same brightness of every square inch of the source. Here comes my question, because that seems to me rather counter-intuitive and, when I try to find a rigorous justification to it, I find the same arcane sentence *in each book, in each review, in each paper* I have seen:

<<Because of Liouville's theorem, gravitational lensing conserves surface brightness>>

(... and therefore the magnification is found by dividing the subtended area of the image by that of the source). Every single author I have read, drops that sentence as if it were something very obvious, and quickly goes into other questions.

I have tried to trace-back the origin of the idea, by consulting the bibliography of every book or document in which that thing is stated. Interestingly, I have recognized sort of a fingerprint of obscure points like this one, a patter that is repeated in many of the documents, as if some authors didn't understand and merely copied from each other, developing and personalizing only the parts they understand in between.

How is Liouville's theorem applied to photons along null geodesics?

I will accept an appropiate link or paper reference as a good answer.
 
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Regarding background quasars lensed by foreground galaxies, I would cast my vote on Halton Arp. Maybe I am stupid but I think it would be helpful if you provided some picture and pointed out what the probelm is.
 
No, you're not stupid. In fact you're right, I want to incorporate some drawings and further explanations if I get no answer, because pictures and equations make the thread much more attractive and more likely to receive an answer. That is too time-consuming, so I am trying first with the only-verbose description. For people involved in the field of gravitational lensing, as well as general theoretical physicists, however, it is clear now as it is, and I was hoping that this could be enough. But yes, some drawings will surely attract more potential answers. Thanks.

Additionally, what do you mean by "I would cast my vote on Halton Arp."? (The author of Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, right?) I don't catch the meaning of the sentence at all.
 
Eduardo_GV said:
For people involved in the field of gravitational lensing, as well as general theoretical physicists, however, it is clear now as it is, and I was hoping that this could be enough. But yes, some drawings will surely attract more potential answers. Thanks.

Additionally, what do you mean by "I would cast my vote on Halton Arp."? (The author of Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, right?) I don't catch the meaning of the sentence at all.

Besides from that, Arp was on the losing side in the quasar/redshift controversies in the 1970:s. Arp proposes that active Seyfert galaxies produce quasars, usually pairwise at high redshifts, and that their redshift is reduced over time. Regarding gravitational lensing, Arp basically suggest that the quadropely imaged quasar in Einsteins cross is actually four distinct quasars, reducing the need for gravitational lensing.

If you are involved in gravitational lensing, professionally,you must have heard about this.
 
I remember to have read something about that controversy, but merely with historical interest, I simply didn't associate the name. Today it is well stablished, beyond any doubt, that the four images of the Einstein Cross come from the same quasar. For instance, there have been (and still there are ongoing) studies about the time delays between the four light curves (that perfectly match once time-shifted, a fact that is really hard to explain if they don't belong to the same physical source).
 

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