Level Curves and Partial Derivatives

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between level curves of a function and its partial derivatives at a specific point. Participants explore how to determine the signs of various partial derivatives based on the behavior of level curves, focusing on the derivatives \(f_x\), \(f_y\), \(f_{xx}\), \(f_{yy}\), \(f_{xy}\), and \(f_{yx}\).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about how to relate partial derivatives to level curves and seeks clarification.
  • Another participant explains that the partial derivative \(f_x(P)\) can be approximated by examining the values of the function at points near \(P\) and concludes that \(f_x(P) < 0\).
  • This participant further argues that the second partial derivative \(f_{xx}(P)\) is positive based on the spacing of level curves, indicating a change in slope.
  • A different participant questions the behavior of the partial derivative \(f_y\) by observing that moving along the y-axis shows constant level curves, suggesting a need for clarification.
  • This same participant later argues that as they move up the y-axis, the level curve constants increase, indicating \(f_y > 0\), and concludes that \(f_{yy} > 0\) due to the closer spacing of level curves at higher values of \(y\).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the behavior of the partial derivatives with respect to \(y\), with some suggesting \(f_y > 0\) while others question the interpretation of level curves along the y-axis. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the signs of all the partial derivatives.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not reached consensus on the behavior of \(f_y\) and the implications for \(f_{xy}\) and \(f_{yx}\). There are also assumptions about the behavior of the function that are not explicitly stated.

Lancelot1
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Hello everyone,

I am trying to solve this wee problem regarding partial derivatives, and not sure how to do so.

The following image shows level curves of some function \[z=f(x,y)\] :

View attachment 7998

I need to determine whether the following partial derivatives are positive or negative at the point P:

\[f_{x} , f_{y} , f_{xx} , f_{yy} , f_{xy} , f_{yx}\]

I am not sure how to relate the partial derivatives to the level curves. I know that partial derivatives at a point are slopes of a curve created when we fix a plane such as x=a or y=b. Where and how do I see it in level curves ?

Cheers !
 

Attachments

  • lc1.PNG
    lc1.PNG
    3.5 KB · Views: 185
Physics news on Phys.org
Hi Lancelot,

Remember that a partial derivative is the limit of a slope.
More specifically:
$$
f_x(P)=\lim_{h\to 0}\frac{f(P+(h,0)) - f(P)}{h} \approx \frac{f(P+(h,0)) - f(P)}{h}
$$
Let's start at P and make a step with size $h>0$ to the right.
To the right of P we see that it has value 4.
And at P itself we have value 6.
So we have:
$$f_x(P)\approx \frac{4 - 6}{h} < 0$$
That is, the surface slopes down in the x-direction at point P.For the second partial derivative with respect to x we have:
$$f_{xx}(P) \approx \frac{f_x(P+(h,0)) - f_x(P)}{h}$$
We see that to the left the level curves are closer together than to the right.
That means that at left the slope is steeper than at the right.
So we take a small negative slope (at the right) minus a bigger negative slope (at the left), and end up with a positive number.
Or put otherwise, we begin with a steep downward slope, and have to add something positive to it to get a less steep slope.
So:
$$f_{xx}(P) > 0$$

How far do you get with the other partial derivatives?
 
When I try to look at the derivate by y, I go up and down the y-axis, the level curves are constant there, am I wrong ?
 
Lancelot said:
When I try to look at the derivate by y, I go up and down the y-axis, the level curves are constant there, am I wrong ?

If we go up the y-axis starting from some arbitrary point, the level curve constants go up, don't they?
It means that $f_y > 0$.
That leaves the question how fast they go up.
Since the level curves are closer together for higher y, it means that the rate they go up accelerates.
Consequently $f_{yy} > 0$.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K