Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, no fly zone

  1. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/11/gadhafi-thugs-grab-cnn-crew/?hpt=T2

    Video of Qaddafi forces routing rebels.

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/03/11/exp.tsr.libya.rebels.reatreat.cnn?hpt=T2

    And...

    GRAPHIC VIDEO:

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/11/libya.civil.war/index.html?hpt=T2

    I know that the world is busy place, and Japan is in trouble, WI is drawing attention, but these people are being slaughtered, the evidence of that slaughter is being systematically hidden.

    If we'll do nothing, we should at least watch. We've failed the Libyan people in every possible way, but Europe has truly shown their disregard for former colonies unless the USA is footing the bill.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. tiny-tim

    tiny-tim 26,054
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    Libya was always a colony, from Roman times until 1951, see eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#History.

    "Europe" (only Italy, actually :wink:) only took over in 1911.

    Libyans kill Libyans, and somehow that's Europe's fault?

    Come off it, the Arab League countries bear a far greater political responsibility, and will be the first to complain if Europe intervenes. :redface:
     
  4. Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    The Arab League is joke, otherwise I would turn to them in this case, along with the African Union... it's not going to happen. We can either stand on formalities, or France can send in the Charles De Gaulle, and NATO (aka the USA in this case) the Enterprise. Two carrier groups should be enough to begin operations over Libya.

    Beyond the colonial aspect, this was a pretty horrific and internationally criminal regime... yet we have the Italy buying 38% of their oil, funding what's happening now. We have Spain Dependant on them, and France who sold them the weapons used to kill rebels now.

    It wasn't a prouder moment when Saddam turned his weaponry and money from us on the Kurds, and then the Shiite population. I'm not making a global point about colonialism, but it's a kinder thing to lead with than, "You blanks sold a guy developing WMD openly, Lockerbie and Berlin man... Mirage Jets and worse." Don't you think?
     
  5. tiny-tim

    tiny-tim 26,054
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    I don't remember you complaining earlier. :confused:

    Are you saying that we should have attempted regime change a long time ago?
     
  6. Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    Yes, and I've complained a lot, I just haven't been alive so long, eh? As much as I think Reagan was a fool and nearly a lunatic, his only mistake in his dealings with Ghaddafi is that he missed his tent when we bombed Al-Aziziyah.

    I'm saying that the Mossad/KGB model is best here... kill him, kill his insane children, then let the rest be the civil war that it always would have been. Neutralize the weapons we so kindly sold him, and the money we so kindly gave him for oil.

    You kill innocent people, but it beats what's happening now. If you've paid attention at all to my posts, now and... previously... you know damned well that this is my view, and has been for quite a while.
     
  7. Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    I'm all set to hear about Arab's killing their own, isn't that what we have been doing for several thousand years now? I guess I would be more excited if the entire Middle-East decided that a human life has value.
     
  8. Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    That would be nice (the latter part), but these regimes clearly do not care if their people live or die, Libya especially. In the meantime, I don't know that we can stand this one on the sidelines with anything approachign a clear conscience. Obama said he has to go, and now we're sitting here with our... things... in the wind. It's terrible optics, bad policy, and too much like Gulf I when we abandoned the Kurds and Shiites to Saddam's "mercy".
     
  9. tiny-tim

    tiny-tim 26,054
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    i haven't actually :redface:

    but i've just done a forum search for posts by you with "Libya" or "Gadhafi", and although you've been posting in general discussion for 9 months, i can find nothing earlier than 3 weeks ago :confused:
     
  10. Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    true, but then, Libya hasn't been on the radar as a possibly fluid situation until about three weeks ago. The nature of the regime alone isn't enough to sweep in and start killing, but these war crimes and crimes against humanity are.

    I certainly didn't see Egypt coming, or Tunisia... did you? I wouldn't have bothered to discus a completely static situation, especially when Russia, China, Italy, France, and Spain all had much to lose from any movement there.

    Times are changing it seems, and I'm afraid that the example being set in Libya will have a chilling effect on future attempts to overthrow repressive regimes. We encourage this, then leave people to their fate at the hands of our money and weapons. This is not a way to conduct international affairs, in any country, on any continent.
     
  11. cobalt124

    cobalt124 150
    Gold Member

    Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    Just heard on BBC Radio News that the Arab League have agreed to a no fly zone, but have batted it back to the U.N. to set the thing up. If this is true, chances are much improved for foreign intervention to boot Gadaffi out. Sorry, don't have time to reinforce with a link. Will look shortly.

    EDIT: found it http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12723554
     
  12. Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    If that's true, then it really is on the rest of us now... the Arab League can't institue an NFZ... they lack the airpower and logistics... now lets see if the UN, NATO, and EU can handle this, or if the buck just keeps being passed.
     
  13. cobalt124

    cobalt124 150
    Gold Member

    Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    They'd better. It would be a disgrace to let a totally isolated Gadaffi carry on like this.
     
  14. Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    Agreed... and given the casualties already being incurred, and the way they're hunting down rebels... killing some civilians to stop this is a terrible, but worthwhile trade IMO.
     
  15. cobalt124

    cobalt124 150
    Gold Member

    Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    Reading the CNN link, Obama talks of "not taking the decision lightly", and "costs and benefits", and seems hesitant? As do other nations.
     
  16. Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    It's an enormous commitment, morally and legally, but at this point we're only cultivating a different kind of blowback if we don't. We can't afford to allow this to continue, then try to deal with an even more unstable Libyan regime; tribalism woud be preferable... Somalia would be preferable to an organized slaughter from the air, and from armor.
     
  17. cobalt124

    cobalt124 150
    Gold Member

    Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    I guess as usual morality won't come into it. From the BBC link U.K. and France pro, E.U. and N.A.T.O. not keen, and Russia may wield a veto at the U.N.
     
  18. Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    Not surprising... yet very depressing.
     
  19. tiny-tim

    tiny-tim 26,054
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    changing your tune, aren't you? :redface:
    so you don't think "horrific and internationally criminal" acts constitute "crimes against humanity"? :frown:

    Libyans have been tortured, and have been just disappearing, for years …

    how is the present situation any worse? :confused:

    So no need to go in with a plan, then? :redface:
     
  20. Re: Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, Who Is Watching?

    How so?


    True, but until now there was no legal basis to intervene, contrasted wtih an ongoing massacre. Many people are tortured and killed, it's not every day a government uses AM weaponry, heavy armor, and air assets against civilians.

    Really? I've read too many of your posts to bite at such obvious bait. Why don't you explain how open warfare and bombardment of civilians and infrastructure ISN'T a change in the wrong direction.

    No need to go in, the plan is not pleasant, but it doesn't involve going in. You're being reductionist to the point of absurdity here tim, please do better.
     
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