News Libya: Rebels Being Slaughtered, no fly zone

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CNN's Nic Robertson reported on the brutal detention of his crew by Gadhafi's forces in Libya, highlighting the violent reality of the conflict. Pro-Gadhafi forces are actively bombing rebel positions, particularly in Ras Lanuf, while international discussions intensify regarding intervention, including a potential no-fly zone supported by the Arab League. The U.S. has expanded sanctions against Gadhafi's regime, as calls for his departure grow louder from the EU. The situation raises ethical concerns about the international community's responsibility to intervene in the face of war crimes and humanitarian crises. The ongoing violence and the regime's disregard for civilian life underscore the urgency for decisive action.
  • #31


Agreed... and given the casualties already being incurred, and the way they're hunting down rebels... killing some civilians to stop this is a terrible, but worthwhile trade IMO.

If only some of your family and friends could be swapped with these nameless civilians before such a trade could be made.
 
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  • #32


Zryn said:
If only some of your family and friends could be swapped with these nameless civilians before such a trade could be made.

It would be worth the trade, and I have an aunt I can spare.

And no, I'm not joking.
 
  • #33


On March 3, I said:
Until we see WMDs and/or death tolls with a couple of extra zeroes on them, we shouldn't be responding to the killing of a few Libyans by killing a lot of Libyans. Right now it appears the people who we want to win are winning so for at least the time-being, we should let them win. What we did in Kosovo was a good thing, but it was a much bigger humanitarian problem and we were prepared (and did) back it up with ground troops. Are we really ready for ground troops in Libya?

A no-fly-zone here is not a simple thing. Once you do it, you're all in and we're not ready to be all-in. It's not big enough yet for that to be worth it.
What has changed since then is that the rebels are now losing and more of them are dying. But information still seems sketchy to me:
1. How many are dying?
2. Are they acually civilians or are they armed rebels?

The answer to those questions determines whether there is a moral/humanitarian mandate to help and without a clear answer it is tough to decide. But that may be irrelevant: The other thing that has changed is international support for action even from African nations is increasing.

So I'm not opposed to going in, but I think if we do it has to be with the goal of removing Gadhafi regardless of what is required to do it. That means:

1. A month of a "no fly zone" with the associated SEAD. That alone may envigorate the rebels and help them win. If it doesn't:
2. Airstrikes against the Libyan government a la Yugoslavia. If that doesn't do it after about a month:
3. Ground troops to capture Tripoli followed by a peacekeeping force. That's a commitment of several tens of thousands of troops and a virtual guarantee of dead Americans, but I don't think we can do step 1 without acceping that we may need to do 2 and 3. To stop at step 1 after a month if it doesn't work just makes things worse.

A CNN op ed on this issue that troll title aside makes a few good points...while I think being wrong in its overall thesis:
Has the Obama administration decided it wants the Gadhafi regime to survive?

That hypothesis is the only way to make sense of the administration's actions toward Libya.

On March 3, President Obama announced that Col. Moammar Gadhafi "must go."

Gadhafi did not listen. Instead, the Libyan dictator has brutally quelled the uprising with rockets, air strikes and attacks on civilian population centers.

And the U.S. reaction? The more brutally Gadhafi acts, the more slowly the U.S. responds. France and the United Kingdom are pressing for a no-fly zone inside Libya. Some military experts in U.S. have suggested arming the insurgents. The administration has said it is considering all these options, but that any final decision must await a NATO meeting on Tuesday.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/03/14/frum.obama.libya/index.html?hpt=T2

My opinion is probably predictable: It isn't that Obama wants Gadhafi to stay (I believe him when he says he wants him to go), it's that Obama is a staunch liberal and therefore by nature a staunch pacifist. He isn't capable of making a decision that takes us into a war. We may eventually get there, but only after international bodies like the UN or NATO make the decision for him and he follows them.

The writer considers a similar hypothesis but rejects it, instead opting to believe that Obama believes Gadhafi isn't that bad of a dictator and so would prefer he win and continue the status quo. Much as I would love to believe that Obama's moral cowardace runs that deep, I don't.
 
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  • #34


russ_watters said:
On March 3, I said: What has changed since then is that the rebels are now losing and more of them are dying. But information still seems sketchy to me:
1. How many are dying?
2. Are they acually civilians or are they armed rebels?

The answer to those questions determines whether there is a moral/humanitarian mandate to help and without a clear answer it is tough to decide. But that may be irrelevant: The other thing that has changed is international support for action even from African nations is increasing.

So I'm not opposed to going in, but I think if we do it has to be with the goal of removing Ghadaffi regardless of what is required to do it. That means:

1. A month of a "no fly zone" with the associated SEAD. That alone may envigorate the rebels and help them win. If it doesn't:
2. Airstrikes against the Libyan government a la Yugoslavia. If that doesn't do it after about a month:
3. Ground troops to capture Tripoli followed by a peacekeeping force. That's a commitment of several tens of thousands of troops and a virtual guarantee of dead Americans, but I don't think we can do step 1 without acceping that we may need to do 2 and 3. To stop at step 1 after a month if it doesn't work just makes things worse.

Now that sounds like a sane plan that could actually work.
 
  • #35


Al Qaeda Targets Libya

The terror cell sees Gaddafi’s bloody civil conflict as the perfect chance to swoop in and turn the war-torn country into an Islamic state. By Ron Moreau and Sami Yousafzai.

Exiled Libyans with connections to Al Qaeda are racing to find ways to send people home, in hope of steering the anti-Gaddafi revolt in a radical Islamist direction, according to several senior Afghan Taliban sources in contact with Al-Qaeda.

“This rebellion is the fresh breeze they’ve been waiting years for,” says an Afghan Taliban operative who helps facilitate the movement of Al Qaeda militants between the tribal area and Pakistani cities. “Some say they are ready to go back at this critical moment.” The operative, who has just returned from Pakistan’s lawless tribal area on the Afghanistan border, adds: “They realize that if they don’t use this opportunity, it could be the end of their chances to turn Libya toward a real Islamic state, as Afghanistan once was.”
continued...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20110315/ts_dailybeast/12919_alqaedaslibyaplans

If true, what a mess.
 
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  • #36


Evo said:
continued...

If true, what a mess.

Well, if they can't turn to international bodies for help, their growing anger (misplaced or not,it hardly matters) and the predicament they find themselves in would tend to lead to easy radicalization. I'd add, it's not as though the Libyan people were in love with the west to begin with.
 
  • #37


nismaratwork said:
We've failed the Libyan people in every possible way...

I'm sorry, but I do not accept responsibility for another country's mess. I don't mind my tax dollars being spent to help other countries begin their recovery from natural disasters from time to time, and that includes Haiti and the Tsunami disaster a few years back. It's the humanitarian thing to do.

I strongly object to a single penny being spent on bailing out a country that's destroying itself, particularly if the people of that nation had the opportunity to overthrow their oppressors at an earlier date, but did not, instead accepting a mantle of dictatorship. If Godaffy is doing the unthinkable by murdering rebels with a legitimate grip, take him out. If that's against U.S. policy, it's time for a change in policy. If their gripe isn't legitimate, then do nothing.
 
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  • #38


mugaliens said:
I'm sorry, but I do not accept responsibility for another country's mess. I don't mind my tax dollars being spent to help other countries begin their recovery from natural disasters from time to time, and that includes Haiti and the Tsunami disaster a few years back. It's the humanitarian thing to do.

We're not responsible, but we've still failed them.

mugaliens said:
I strongly object to a single penny being spent on bailing out a country that's destroying itself, particularly if the people of that nation had the opportunity to overthrow their oppressors at an earlier date, but did not, instead accepting a mantle of dictatorship. If Godaffy is doing the unthinkable by murdering rebels with a legitimate grip, take him out. If that's against U.S. policy, it's time for a change in policy. If their gripe isn't legitimate, then do nothing.

I agree on the policy change, but at this point it's probably worth considering that we're watching a new Somalia or Afghanistan form before our eyes. Is it wise to leave matters be, only to come back in a decade out of necessity? I'm also finding it hard to believe that we can exert so little international pressure that we can't have an NFZ under NATO/EU.
 
  • #39


nismaratwork said:
I'm also finding it hard to believe that we can exert so little international pressure that we can't have an NFZ under NATO/EU.

Chances don't look good to get a no fly zone up and running.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12755896
 
  • #43


cobalt124 said:
Wow, I didn't think they would. I hope they are not too late.
France will apparently take action within hours. Apparently the resolution allows any action necessary to protect civilians, which sounds like Ghadafi's army (particularly tanks and artillery) is fair game.
 
  • #44


First, I would suspect, Cruise Missiles to take out the air defenses.
 
  • #45


Ivan Seeking said:
First, I would suspect, Cruise Missiles to take out the air defenses.
If the air defenses are mobile, it doesn't take much strategic wit to put half of them in the suburbs of the biggest government-held towns, and the the other half in the oil refineries. Let's hope the cruise missiles can shoot straight.

But if the French are involved, they might want to use the Foreign Legion Camel Corps instead. Camel dung can really mess up anti-aircraft guns :devil:
 
  • #46


Astronuc said:
France will apparently take action within hours. Apparently the resolution allows any action necessary to protect civilians, which sounds like Ghadafi's army (particularly tanks and artillery) is fair game.

They are going to have to take this path, as it seems a "pure no fly zone" would be pretty useless to the rebels now.
 
  • #47
U.N. Approves No-Fly over Libya 10-0, with 5 abstaining

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/libya_diplomacy" .

I would like to point out that the U.N. Security Counsel "added a paragraph in the resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire "and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians," thereby giving Gadhafi an out, but only if he takes immediate and appropriate action.

Unfortunately, Gadhafi's responses, both before and after the resolution, are not those of a leader maintaining rational control, but that of a despot, a person exercising power tyrannically. In street jargon it's known as "suicide by cop."

Personally, I'd rather we left them alone, but Gadhafi's escalation of the of slaughter of his own countrymen has crossed the line to the point where no one who considers himself a friend of the common man can idly sit by and look away.

Of the multi-national force who will soon be enforcing the no-fly zone."May their arrows fly true, and their swords cut deep." Good luck, and Godspeed.
 
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  • #48
nismaratwork said:
I agree on the policy change, but at this point it's probably worth considering that we're watching a new Somalia or Afghanistan form before our eyes. Is it wise to leave matters be, only to come back in a decade out of necessity? I'm also finding it hard to believe that we can exert so little international pressure that we can't have an NFZ under NATO/EU.

In light of Gadhafi's further slaughters and ramblings, I no longer believe we should do nothing, and it appears a NFZ is what the doctor ordered. More in https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=481988". Not trying to hijack this one. Just built one to concentrate on the NFZ as it unfolds.

In the meantime, the answer to "Who is Watching?" has been answered. At least 10 of the 15 nations on the U.N. Security Counsel.
 
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  • #49


mugaliens said:
In the meantime, the answer to "Who is Watching?" has been answered. At least 10 of the 15 nations on the U.N. Security Counsel.
That sucks! I'm disappointed that more of the key member nations didn't raise the "no" flag as a check on UN aspirations. [/facetious]
 
  • #50


Just heard on BBC Radio News that the French have stated that military action will take place "within hours". Can't find a link for this yet though.

EDIT: here it is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12779628

"Reports suggest air strikes may begin within hours of it passing."
 
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  • #52


mugaliens said:

Hmm... I would take "cease fire" = "good opportunity for Gadaffi to regroup and redeploy forces without being shot at".

A nice cartoon in a UK national newpaper today. An arab in a command-and-control center answering the phone. "Which emergency service you do require: fire, police, ambulance, or foreign intervention?"
 
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  • #53


mugaliens said:
Why is it good? The article title is "Fighting rages on despite Libya Cease-Fire Declaration"...

This is a very smart (impressively smart) move by Ghadaffi. It means several things:
1. Military intervention by the UN would be an act of aggression against a foreign government that isn't at war with anyone (if they stop their advances -- or maybe they can just blame the continued fighting on non-government loyalists).
2. Rebels can't attack Ghadaffi's forces without being the aggressors (they may still want to).
3. A cease-fire means stopping the revolution and that's not what the US/UN/Rebels want. The best the rebels can hope for if the cease-fire holds and hostilities end is that if they lay down their weapons, Ghadaffi won't round them up and execute them and that things just go back to the way they were before the revolution started. There is no upside for them here, only several different downsides.

Ghadaffi is calling our bluff, laying his cards on the table and making it our move. If we want him out, we have to go knock him out in an aggressive war.
 
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  • #54


russ_watters said:
Why is it good? The article title is "Fighting rages on despite Libya Cease-Fire Declaration"...

This is a very smart (impressively smart) move by Ghadaffi. It means several things:
1. Military intervention by the UN would be an act of aggression against a foreign government that isn't at war with anyone (if they stop their advances -- or maybe they can just blame the continued fighting on non-government loyalists).
2. Rebels can't attack Ghadaffi's forces without being the aggressors (they may still want to).
3. A cease-fire means stopping the revolution and that's not what the US/UN/Rebels want. The best the rebels can hope for if the cease-fire holds and hostilities end is that if they lay down their weapons, Ghadaffi won't round them up and execute them and that things just go back to the way they were before the revolution started. There is no upside for them here, only several different downsides.

Ghadaffi is calling our bluff, laying his cards on the table and making it our move. If we want him out, we have to go knock him out in an aggressive war.

'All necessary means'...


I say targeted attacks and all necessary prep for an NFZ first, ask for diplomatic clarification later. The only thing explicity out was invasion, and who wants that? I hope the rebels don't 'cease-fire', which makes it impossible to withdraw without cover. If the rebels want, they can force Ghaddafi's hand, and we can take any excuse with such broad language.
 
  • #55


Re Russ:

Our bluff? Who says anyone is bluffing?

I see nothing unexpected here. Ghadaffi is acting exactly as we would expect.

It seems to me that he got smart with Reagan as well... We all know how that one ended.
 
  • #56


Ivan Seeking said:
Re Russ:

Our bluff? Who says anyone is bluffing?

I see nothing unexpected here. Ghadaffi is acting exactly as we would expect.

Reports would seem to support that this isn't a bluff, I suspect that there won't be a working AA RADAR installation in Libya within 6-12 hours, and if we're smart we'll target armor that's on its way back to Tripoli before it can be stowed again.

Edit: The only thing Reagan did wrong there, is not send another wing over to clean up after we missed Ghaddafi.
 
  • #57


nismaratwork said:
Edit: The only thing Reagan did wrong there, is not send another wing over to clean up after we missed Ghaddafi.

Yes, but Gh sure did get quiet for the next twenty years or so. :biggrin: He was never the same after that.

I always felt badly for his kid, who paid for the sins of the father.
 
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  • #58


Ivan Seeking said:
Yes, but Gh sure did get quiet for the next twenty years or so. :biggrin: He was never the same after that.

Well, the first thing he did after that was to blow Pan Am out of the sky... then he got quiet.

Remember:

Berlin Disco(Gh)
Al Aziziyah (Reagan)
Pan Am (Gh)

Truly, if he'd died, I can't imagine how much suffering would have been avoided.

What I want to know is that now we've backed him into a corner, are we going to secure or bomb/incinerate his cache of mustard agent? We don't want that being sold off, or worse, put into a crop-duster. :bugeye:
 
  • #59


nismaratwork said:
Well, the first thing he did after that was to blow Pan Am out of the sky... then he got quiet.

Remember:

Berlin Disco(Gh)
Al Aziziyah (Reagan)
Pan Am (Gh)

Whoops, you sayin I'm gettin old? :biggrin:

Yeah, I was thinking Pan Am came before the [Reagan's] bombing. I do distinctly remember his virtually disappearing from the face of the Earth after something we did... I thought it was the bombing.
 
  • #60


Ivan Seeking said:
Whoops, you sayin I'm gettin old? :biggrin:

Yeah, I was thinking Pan Am came before the bombing. I do distinctly remember his virtually disappearing from the face of the Earth after something we did... I thought it was the bombing.

Hey, I would never sass my elders. :smile:


Kidding aside, most people seem hazy on the time-line... I think because the bombing in Berlin is often forgotten. Certainly the man changed after we bombed him... he was a sociopath before, but he became erratic and... different after. Trauma... anger... or some kind of TBI... it's a testament to a need to finish what we begin, swiftly.

Heh, figures you'd find one of the few major actions of Reagan's I agree with.
 

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