Lie derivative of tensor field with respect to Lie bracket

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Lie derivative of a tensor field with respect to the Lie bracket of two vector fields. Participants explore the mathematical formulation and properties of the Lie derivative, particularly in relation to various types of tensor fields, including functions, vector fields, and one-forms. The conversation includes attempts to derive a general result and suggestions for simplifying the problem.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant attempts to show that the Lie derivative of a tensor field along a Lie bracket is given by the expression \(\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}t=\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}t-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}t\) but expresses difficulty in the derivation.
  • Another participant suggests focusing on simpler cases, starting with functions and vector fields, before tackling arbitrary tensors, proposing specific examples to illustrate the concept.
  • One participant successfully derives the result for functions and vector fields, indicating that the Lie derivative can be expressed in terms of the Lie bracket, but expresses uncertainty about extending this to one-forms.
  • A later reply introduces Cartan's formula as a potential tool for handling one-forms, suggesting it may aid in the derivation process.
  • Participants engage in detailed mathematical expressions and manipulations to explore the properties of the Lie derivative and its relation to the Lie bracket.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the best approach to derive the general case for arbitrary tensors. While some participants agree on the utility of starting with simpler cases, others express uncertainty about the next steps, particularly regarding one-forms.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reflects various mathematical assumptions and properties of Lie derivatives and tensor fields, but does not resolve all uncertainties or provide a complete derivation for all cases discussed.

Who May Find This Useful

Mathematicians and physicists interested in differential geometry, tensor calculus, and the properties of Lie derivatives may find this discussion beneficial.

"Don't panic!"
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I'm trying to show that the lie derivative of a tensor field ##t## along a lie bracket ##[X,Y]## is given by \mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}t=\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}t-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}t

but I'm not having much luck so far. I've tried expanding ##t## on a coordinate basis, such that ##t=t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}## and then using the properties \mathcal{L}_{X}t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}=X\left[t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\right] and \mathcal{L}_{X}\left(\partial_{\mu_{i}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{j}}\right)=\left(\mathcal{L}_{X}\partial_{\mu_{i}}\right)\otimes dx^{\nu_{j}}+\partial_{\mu_{i}}\otimes \left(\mathcal{L}_{X}dx^{\nu_{j}}\right) In doing so, I end up with \left(\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}\right)t=\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}t-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}t\\=[X,Y]\left(t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\right)\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}+t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\left(\left(\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}\right)\partial_{\mu_{1}}\right)\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}+\cdots +t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\left(\left(\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}\right)\partial_{\mu_{m}}\right)\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}+t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes\left(\left(\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}\right)dx^{\nu_{1}}\right)\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}+\cdots +t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes\left(\left(\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}\right)dx^{\nu_{m}}\right)\\ =[X,Y]\left(t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\right)\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}+t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\left(\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}\right)\left(\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}\right)\\ =\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}\left(t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\right)\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}+t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\left(\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}\right)\left(\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}\right)

Now, if t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\left(\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}\right)\left(\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}\right)=t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}\left(\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}\right) then I arrive at the required result as \mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}\left(t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\right)\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}+t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\left(\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}\right)\left(\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}\right)\\=\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}\left(t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\right)\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}+t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}\left(\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}\right)\\=\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}\left(t^{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{n}}_{\;\;\;\;\nu_{1}\cdots\nu_{m}}\partial_{\mu_{1}}\otimes\cdots\otimes\partial_{\mu_{m}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{1}}\otimes dx^{\nu_{m}}\right)\\=\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}t

but if not, then I'm stumped (at the moment) as to what to do next?!

Also, if what I've done is correct it still seems a little sloppy - is there a nicer way to show it?

Any help would be much appreciated.
 
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Maybe you should focus on simpler cases, rather than trying to do a whole arbitrary tensor at once. You ought to be able to show

$$\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]} f = (\mathcal{L}_X \mathcal{L}_Y - \mathcal{L}_Y \mathcal{L}_X) f$$
where ##f## is a function. Then show

$$\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]} Z = (\mathcal{L}_X \mathcal{L}_Y - \mathcal{L}_Y \mathcal{L}_X) Z$$
where ##Z## is a vector field. Then show

$$\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]} \alpha = (\mathcal{L}_X \mathcal{L}_Y - \mathcal{L}_Y \mathcal{L}_X) \alpha$$
where ##\alpha## is a 1-form. You can choose

$$Z = \partial_\mu, \qquad \alpha = d x^\mu$$
if you like.

Once you can show those, then use

$$\mathcal{L}_X (T \otimes S) = (\mathcal{L}_X T) \otimes S + T \otimes (\mathcal{L}_X S)$$
to prove the general case by induction.
 
Ben Niehoff said:
Maybe you should focus on simpler cases, rather than trying to do a whole arbitrary tensor at once. You ought to be able to show

OK, good idea. Here it goes...

1. ##\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}f=\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}f-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}f##.

To start, note that ##\mathcal{L}_{X}f=X[f]##. Given this, it follows that \mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}f-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}f=\mathcal{L}_{X}Y[f]-\mathcal{L}_{Y}X[f]=X[Y[f]]-Y[X[f]]=[X,Y][f]=\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}f

2. ##\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}Z=\mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}Z-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}Z##.

Note that ##\mathcal{L}_{X}Y=[X,Y]##. Then, we have \mathcal{L}_{X}\mathcal{L}_{Y}Z-\mathcal{L}_{Y}\mathcal{L}_{X}Z = \mathcal{L}_{X}[Y,Z]-\mathcal{L}_{Y}[X,Z] =[X,[Y,Z]]-[Y,[X,Z]]=XYZ-ZYX-YXZ+ZXY=[[X,Y],Z]=\mathcal{L}_{[X,Y]}Z

I have to admit, I'm not exactly sure how to proceed with the one-form case?!
 
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"Don't panic!" said:
I have to admit, I'm not exactly sure how to proceed with the one-form case?!

For that, you might need Cartan's formula:

##\mathcal{L}_X \alpha = d (\iota_X \alpha) + \iota_X (d \alpha)##
 
Ben Niehoff said:
For that, you might need Cartan's formula:

L=d(ιXα)+ιX()

Thanks for the tip.

So, starting with the interior product ##\iota_{X} :\Omega^{r}(M)\rightarrow\Omega^{r-1}(M)## of some ##r##-form ##\omega\in\Omega^{r}(M)## with respect to a vector field ##X\in\mathscr{X}(M)## (where ##\mathscr{X}## is the set of all vector fields on ##M##) $$\iota_{X}\omega(X_{1},\ldots,X_{r-1})\equiv\omega(X,X_{1},\ldots,X_{r-1})$$ For ##X=X^{\mu}\partial_{\mu}## and ##\omega=\frac{1}{r!}\omega_{\mu_{1}\cdots\mu_{r}}dx^{\mu_{1}}\wedge\cdots\wedge dx^{\mu_{r}}##, we have $$\iota_{X}\omega=\frac{1}{(r-1)!}X^{\nu}\omega_{\nu\mu_{2}\cdots\mu_{r}}dx^{\mu_{2}}\wedge\cdots\wedge dx^{\mu_{r}}$$ From this it follows that $$\iota_{[X,Y]}\omega\left(X_{2},\ldots,X_{r}\right)=\frac{1}{(r-1)!}[X,Y]^{\nu}\omega_{\nu\mu_{2}\cdots\mu_{r}}X_{2}^{\mu_{2}}\cdots X_{r}^{\mu_{r}}\qquad\qquad\qquad\qquad\qquad\qquad\qquad\\ =\frac{1}{(r-1)!}\left(X^{\lambda}\partial_{\lambda}Y^{\nu}-Y^{\lambda}\partial_{\lambda}X^{\nu}\right)\omega_{\nu\mu_{2}\cdots\mu_{r}}X_{2}^{\mu_{2}}\cdots X_{r}^{\mu_{r}}\qquad\qquad\qquad\\=\frac{1}{(r-1)!}\left(X^{\lambda}\partial_{\lambda}Y^{\nu}\right)\omega_{\nu\mu_{2}\cdots\mu_{r}}X_{2}^{\mu_{2}}\cdots X_{r}^{\mu_{r}}-\frac{1}{(r-1)!}\left(Y^{\lambda}\partial_{\lambda}X^{\nu}\right)\omega_{\nu\mu_{2}\cdots\mu_{r}}X_{2}^{\mu_{2}}\cdots X_{r}^{\mu_{r}}\qquad\qquad\qquad\qquad\qquad\qquad\qquad\\ $$
Now, I know this should be equal to ##X\left(\iota_{Y}\omega\right)-Y\left(\iota_{X}\omega\right)##, but I'm unsure how to proceed to this result from where I'm up to at the moment?
 
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