Look at a mole. They have eyes, but they are small, and often

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of design in biological organisms, particularly focusing on the eyes of moles and other vestigial features in animals. Participants explore the implications of these features in the context of intelligent design versus evolutionary biology, referencing various examples and literature.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that moles may be blind due to their small, fur-covered eyes, questioning the rationale behind such a design if it were the result of intelligent creation.
  • Another participant points to vestigial eyes in some species as evidence of poor design, arguing that human eyes are also imperfect and serve as a counter to intelligent design creationism.
  • A different participant mentions goosebumps as a vestigial reflex that seems unnecessary in modern humans, further supporting the argument against intelligent design.
  • One participant references Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker," discussing how humans without lenses can still detect movement, which they find humorous in the context of creationist arguments about complexity.
  • Another participant notes that Dawkins addresses the evolution of wings and eyes in "Climbing Mount Improbable," sharing a link to their own thread on intelligent design creationism.
  • One participant humorously comments on the human knee as a design flaw, adding a light-hearted note to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the implications of biological features on the debate between intelligent design and evolution. There is no consensus reached on the interpretations of these features.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various examples and literature, but the discussion remains open-ended with no definitive conclusions drawn about the implications of design in biology.

Holocene
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Look at a mole. They have eyes, but they are small, and often completely covered by fur. I'm not a biologist, but I'd venture to guess that many are completely blind.

If this is a design from an intelligent being, all I can say is WTF?
 
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What about the species that have vestigial eyes? Those are even better. Even human eyes are quite imperfect and suboptimal. Poor design is a good counter to intelligent design creationism.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-09/design.html
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/11/denton_vs_squid.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_poor_design#Examples

My personal favorite is the recurrent laryngeal nerve in giraffes, shared ERVs or any atavism at all.
 
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There was another good example in New Scientist a couple of weeks ago: Goosebumps.
It is a vestigal reflex that doesn't make much sense anymore since we no longer have fur...
 
One book I really enjoyed reading was "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins.

In it, he talks about how some humans have had the lenses completely removed from their eyes. He talks about how these people are left unable to distinguish images, but can still detect movement or sense when they are about to walk into a wall.

Now imagine if you had these lenseless eyes, and were competing against humans with no eyes at all. You'd have a significant advantage.

I really love reading about stuff like this. It just makes me laugh when creationist try to argue about "irreducible complexity" or ask questions like "what good is half a wing".

Perhaps ask that question to a penguin, who has fully developed wings, and yet lives its entire life hobbling around.
 
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Speaking of Dawkins, he addresses both wings and eyes in two separate chapters in "Climbing Mount Improbable".

Here is one of my threads on intelligent design creationism that has a lot of good links to videos and the like:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=190610
 
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f95toli said:
There was another good example in New Scientist a couple of weeks ago: Goosebumps.
It is a vestigal reflex that doesn't make much sense anymore since we no longer have fur...

That depends on who you're talking about...my uncle...whew, that man has back hair like a bear.
 
binzing said:
That depends on who you're talking about...my uncle...whew, that man has back hair like a bear.

:smile:
 
I'd like to point out the incredible design flaw that is the human knee! :(
(at least, MY human knee is!)

And the funnybone! :eek:
 

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