Losing the copyright when publishing a research article?

[Andy Resnick]

I can use the income from this publication

That's the essence of my question to you: *how* do you propose to get income? Charging people to download the file from your website?

 

[atyy]

I will repeat my request for information on how your model differs from those extant.

For what it's worth, a lack of familiarity with the ArXiv should already be setting off alarm bells in people's heads regarding the seriousness of this thread.

http://arxiv.org/help/endorsement

How does one get through the arXiv endorsement system if one is not affiliated with a well-known research institution?

Al68's suggestion seems to be a good one for that reason.

Also, couldn't one put it on a blog nowadays - that is publication - ie. making it publicly availiable.

 

[shoehorn]

FYI, discussion of non-mainstream science is against forum policy. Let's keep this discussion to publication issues.

FYI, this thread was still in the special and general relativity forum when I asked for clarification. Asking a question about the OP's treatment of general relativity is not, in any way I can fathom, deviating into discussion of non-mainstream science.

 

[shoehorn]

About your request on more details you will see that my answer went out of the forum limits, and I'm sorry for that. Just do a Google search on "conformal gauge relativity" and you will figure out what is it about.

All I can find on "conformal gauge relativity" is a single google link pointing to a website where someone - presumably you - is attempting to sell a paper on the subject for $50.

I appreciate that the vagaries of the academic publishing system can seem obscure to people on the outside, but what you're attempting to do is very odd. Were the paper free, I could read it for you to tell you whether or not there's any merit to what you're saying (a good chunk of my PhD work was taken up with studying how the conformal structure of general relativity - both with and without fields - makes the construction of solutions to the Cauchy problem for GR more tractable, so I am at least familiar with the terms you're using). Unfortunately, I find the idea of paying to read a research article frankly ludicrous.

 

[Dale]

You mean that authors "actually" are getting no money from publishers when submitting a scientific paper and I have already seen that's the way it is.

No, I mean there is essentially no money in it for the publishers either. It is expensive to produce a scientific journal and the circulation for each is very small compared to other types of publications. As a result the margins are typically very thin with few exceptions.

 

[CGR_JAMA]

If access to previous work is a problem, then go to a nearby university's physics department library -- not the main campus library -- where the significant physics journals are readily available on the shelves.

Well, if I were linving in the United States that wouldn't be a problem.
I have checked that kind of material in the local university's library and there is not as much and as actualized as in the Internet.

 

[CGR_JAMA]

That's the essence of my question to you: *how* do you propose to get income? Charging people to download the file from your website?

Yes, as any publishing service does. Is there any other way?

As I mentioned earlier my first thought was about this article being interesting mainly to university's physics departments and to research groups working on related subjects. Those who have a budget for getting access to this specialized material.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Yes, as any publishing service does. Is there any other way?

As I mentioned earlier my first thought was about this article being interesting mainly to university's physics departments and to research groups working on related subjects. Those who have a budget for getting access to this specialized material.

Well, it's not the same: journals peer review. That's why organizations are willing to subscribe to research journals. What sort of peer review has your work undergone?

 

[CGR_JAMA]

Yes, as any publishing service does. Is there any other way?

As I mentioned earlier my first thought was about this article being interesting mainly to university's physics departments and to research groups working on related subjects. Those who have a budget for getting access to this specialized material.

All I can find on "conformal gauge relativity" is a single google link pointing to a website where someone - presumably you - is attempting to sell a paper on the subject for $50.

I appreciate that the vagaries of the academic publishing system can seem obscure to people on the outside, but what you're attempting to do is very odd. Were the paper free, I could read it for you to tell you whether or not there's any merit to what you're saying (a good chunk of my PhD work was taken up with studying how the conformal structure of general relativity - both with and without fields - makes the construction of solutions to the Cauchy problem for GR more tractable, so I am at least familiar with the terms you're using). Unfortunately, I find the idea of paying to read a research article frankly ludicrous.

I do appreciate your intention on spending time for giving a qualified opinion on the paper.

I also find myself in the dilemma of being required to pay for getting access to many articles without having a clue on what is inside apart for what can be seen in the abstract, so from my point of view that is not odd. But as I mentioned earlier my first intention was to target university's physics departments and research groups working on related topics, not individual researchers. Once acquired all the campus would have access to it through the corresponding library.

For sure I will have to reconsider what is possible and what isn't relative to this publication. I know a qualified review is needed and making it accessible to the scientific community is the first priority. Without these the article is useless.

 

[CGR_JAMA]

Well, it's not the same: journals peer review. That's why organizations are willing to subscribe to research journals. What sort of peer review has your work undergone?

None yet. Its not clear to me how to get such review out of the usual publishing cycle.

 

[Andy Resnick]

None yet. Its not clear to me how to get such review out of the usual publishing cycle.

simple submission will do.

 

[CGR_JAMA]

simple submission will do.

Since I want to keep the copyright then my only choice is to grant a free access to the article.

That may be done by submitting to arXiv but there is the endorsement little problem: I don’t know anyone to whom I can ask to endorse my work and in their service documentation they don’t give a mechanism for getting in contact with one .

So for being short I will follow Al68’s suggestion (thanks Al68, I wasn’t aware of this possibility until you mentioned it) and publish through “Physics Forums/General Physics/Independent Research” sub forum.

My only concern on proceeding is about my article being too long. I’m afraid it may exceed some limit when trying to be posted.

Which will be the correct procedure?

1) To open a post with condensed explanations and provide a copy of the full article for having all the details.

2) To brake the article into smaller (but complete) sections and create a posting for each one with better explanations.

In the first case, the posting should be done completely in one editing session or can it be done progressively during many days?
Will the revision start during the posting or when finishing? I’m asking this because the procedure will take its time.

From a practical point of view the second option looks more attractive but I don’t know if opening a topic into many-posts is a valid option.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Since I want to keep the copyright then my only choice is to grant a free access to the article.

Submitting a paper for publication does not require you to transfer the copyright. Only *if* the journal agrees to publish your work do you have copyright issues.

 

[CGR_JAMA]

Submitting a paper for publication does not require you to transfer the copyright. Only *if* the journal agrees to publish your work do you have copyright issues.

I'm a bit lost here. Are these journals offering the revision service without conditions? Or they state that once they give you the "ok" for publishing then you will have to release the copyright on previous agreement and do the publication only through their service?

May be I'm missing something subtle there. Will check again existing journals and their conditions.

 

[ViewsofMars]

Submitting a paper for publication does not require you to transfer the copyright. Only *if* the journal agrees to publish your work do you have copyright issues.

Hi Andy. I've discussed this with a lawyer. If you have your name and date on the publication (article) then it has been automatically copyrighted. You could have copyright issues if a person plagarizes without crediting the source(s).

 

[CGR_JAMA]

Submitting a paper for publication does not require you to transfer the copyright. Only *if* the journal agrees to publish your work do you have copyright issues.

On every journal the situation seems to be the same: the copyright-transfer form should be ready and the transfer will be done automatically when the article is accepted for publication. It's not being told explicitly but one can figures out that without the form being signed previously by the author nothing will happen on the other side.

Springer - Gravitation and Cosmology
Dear author,
"In order to simplify the procedure of interaction between an author (coauthors) and the publisher we ask you to send agreements on transfer of copyright (in Russian or in English) simultaneously with the manuscript of the article to the editorial board of the journal."

APS – Journals - Physical Review D
Copyright transfer
"A copyright transfer form should be sent as part of your submission, and will be required before publication. While the transfer of copyright takes effect only upon acceptance of the paper for publication in an APS journal, supplying the form initially can prevent unnecessary delays. We strongly suggest that you complete it now."


IOP – Classical and Quantum Gravity
Transfer of copyright
"…We ask you to submit a completed and signed Assignment of Copyright form with your article…"

World Scientific - International Journal of Modern Physics D (IJMPD)
Gravitation; Astrophysics and Cosmology
Author rights
"…..Transfer of copyright to World Scientific (or its subsidiaries) becomes effective when an article is accepted for publication."

 

[f95toli]

What Andy meant was that once you're paper has been accepted for publication the journal will ask you to sign and send them a "transfer of copyright" form, until you've done so you hold the copyright.
So yes, they will review the paper etc even before you've transferred the copyright to them.

 

[ViewsofMars]

What Andy meant was that once you're paper has been accepted for publication the journal will ask you to sign and send them a "transfer of copyright" form, until you've done so you hold the copyright.
So yes, they will review the paper etc even before you've transferred the copyright to them.

f95toli, yes. You can give a publisher a "transfer of copyright" but that doesn't mean you loose the copyright to your publication. The person's name and article will still need to be mentioned if it is used in scientific circles. Credit is given to the person that has written or contributed in a scientific article. We can often times see that within peer-reviewed articles in Science and Nature.

 

[CGR_JAMA]

What Andy meant was that once you're paper has been accepted for publication the journal will ask you to sign and send them a "transfer of copyright" form, until you've done so you hold the copyright.
So yes, they will review the paper etc even before you've transferred the copyright to them.

Is that a standard procedure on people doing research?

I understand that if during the revision the author does not agree with the publisher and/or reviewers on demanded corrections he has the right to change his opinion and decide not to publish with them. Then no copyright transfer should be effective since "acceptance" was not reached yet. But I believe it is not a valid alternative to follow all the review process and reject to finish it when you fill the "acceptance" is near to occur because you know once it happens you are done with the copyright issue. I'm sure I'm not getting well that point due to my lack of experience.

 

[ZapperZ]

Is that a standard procedure on people doing research?

I understand that if during the revision the author does not agree with the publisher and/or reviewers on demanded corrections he has the right to change his opinion and decide not to publish with them. Then no copyright transfer should be effective since "acceptance" was not reached yet. But I believe it is not a valid alternative to follow all the review process and reject to finish it when you fill the "acceptance" is near to occur because you know once it happens you are done with the copyright issue. I'm sure I'm not getting well that point due to my lack of experience.

Look, there is this DOCUMENT that you have to sign and return to the publisher to transfer the copyright. Until you sign that, it doesn't matter at what stage of the review process your manuscript is at, the publisher does not have the copyright.

I am not sure what the whole point of this thread really is. If it is simply being able to distribute your paper even after publishing, that is commonly done. The Physical Review journals does NOT disallow authors to, say, put their papers on their website even after publication! The only thing you can't do is either to sell it, or put it on a commercial website. So you DO see authors allowing free downloads from their personal webpages, and no journals so far have had any issues with that.

So what is your complaint again?

Zz.

 

[f95toli]

f95toli, yes. You can give a publisher a "transfer of copyright" but that doesn't mean you loose the copyright to your publication. The person's name and article will still need to be mentioned if it is used in scientific circles. Credit is given to the person that has written or contributed in a scientific article. We can often times see that within peer-reviewed articles in Science and Nature.

Somewhat OT:
I never hold copyright for my publications. Since I work for an organization that is owned by the British government all the papers I publish fall under "Crown copyright" (=copyright is held by the state) which is actually retained even when my papers are published. We are not allowed to sign copyright transfer forms; what we do instead is that we send the editors a "permission to publish" which all major journals accept.
As far as I know there is a similar system in place for federally funded work in the US.

Also, of course my papers are cited etc. using my name, but that has nothing to do with who legally owns the copyright.

 

[ZapperZ]

Somewhat OT:
I never hold copyright for my publications. Since I work for an organization that is owned by the British government all the papers I publish fall under "Crown copyright" (=copyright is held by the state) which is actually retained even when my papers are published. We are not allowed to sign copyright transfer forms; what we do instead is that we send the editors a "permission to publish" which all major journals accept.
As far as I know there is a similar system in place for federally funded work in the US.

There is. Papers published by authors from a US Nat'l labs have a different "modification" to the journal's copyright requirement. The publishing office at the labs will modify the copyright document of the journal to reflect the non-exclusivity of the journal's rights.

So yes, none of us holds the copyright to any of our work, since they were funded by public money.

Zz.

 

[CGR_JAMA]

Look, there is this DOCUMENT that you have to sign and return to the publisher to transfer the copyright. Until you sign that, it doesn't matter at what stage of the review process your manuscript is at, the publisher does not have the copyright.

I am not sure what the whole point of this thread really is. If it is simply being able to distribute your paper even after publishing, that is commonly done. The Physical Review journals does NOT disallow authors to, say, put their papers on their website even after publication! The only thing you can't do is either to sell it, or put it on a commercial website. So you DO see authors allowing free downloads from their personal webpages, and no journals so far have had any issues with that.

So what is your complaint again?

Zz.

Well, I'm sorry if I bodered someone, I was not complaining just trying to understand.
And you are right, I have seen that those are the usual rights granted to authors after the copyright is transferred to the publishers.

This thread started because for someone like me not having a support institution for doing research the income coming from selling "somehow" the article or a book derived from it was interesting. That’s my only motivation for retaining the copyright. But it was not the one that pushed me to write the article, that was just doing some science.

To release the copyright is a valid option, I won't complain about that. It’s more than I can't get use to the idea and that’s why I'm ok to submitting it to arXiv of Physics Forums.
As I stated before, based on what was talked in this forum's thread I made up my mind on giving up on selling the article in favor of getting access to a review process. That works fine to me and I believe is as valid as the previous option.

The point on this thread was to get enough information for taking such a decision and clearly you helped me to do so.

Thanks all for replying

 

[ZapperZ]

This thread started because for someone like me not having a support institution for doing research the income coming from selling "somehow" the article or a book derived from it was interesting. That’s my only motivation for retaining the copyright. But it was not the one that pushed me to write the article, that was just doing some science.

No one makes money out of holding a copyright on a peer-reviewed paper. Period.

Does that answer your question?

I'm also moving this thread out of "Career Guidance". It has nothing to do with it.

Zz.

 

[Moonbear]

This part is very hard to believe. Perhaps you can clarify what you meant. I'm assuming you didn't mean that if I publish a proof of a mathematical theorem in a journal, I would have to pay the publishers of the journal to include the proof in a book? Nobody would be able to publish books if this was true.

That's exactly what happens. If you publish in a journal, you assign copyright to the journal. If you want to use what you published in that journal in another source, the publisher of that other source needs to pay the first journal to use it (of course, if you happen to publish your book with the same publishing company that owns the journal you're published in, they can waive these charges).

And, it's true, there's very little money to be made in publishing peer-reviewed journals. A lot of scientific societies used to publish their own journals in their fields, back when there was some small profit to be made, which then supplemented other functions of the society (such as keeping registration fees lower for the members of that society). But, nowadays, especially with online publishing reducing the individual subscriptions to paper journals, scientific societies are selling the journals to big publishing companies because they lose money rather than make money. Only by producing MANY journals in many different fields and selling bulk subscriptions to libraries can a publisher make any money for those journals.

And, really, even if you were paid royalties every time someone specifically wanted a copy of your article, how many people really are going to read it? Authors of fiction novels make a reasonable profit off royalties only because they're selling millions of copies, not because there's a lot of money to be made from any single copy. When you have a niche market like a scientific journal, you're lucky to be selling thousands of copies if something is REALLY popular. What would you earn on that? $10? It wouldn't be worth the hassle of claiming it on your income taxes.

 

[ZapperZ]

That's exactly what happens. If you publish in a journal, you assign copyright to the journal. If you want to use what you published in that journal in another source, the publisher of that other source needs to pay the first journal to use it (of course, if you happen to publish your book with the same publishing company that owns the journal you're published in, they can waive these charges).

Actually, I don't think so. You can't copyright ideas, in this case (that's in the domain of a patent).

None of the science journals, and certainly not the ones that covers physics, would hold a copyright to such ideas. If true, as has been said, you can never talk about superconductivity or any other physics principles and discoveries, since those have been published in journals. I only need to point out review articles that are quite commonly published (see, Physics Reports, Report on the Progress in Physics, Review of Modern Physics journals). These review papers use ideas, publications, etc. that have been published elsewhere, not in the sense of outright copy verbatim, but in regurgitating the contents.

So while the actual journal that published the, say, derivation of something, holds the copyright to that paper, it doesn't hold the copyright to the idea of that derivation.

Zz.

 

[ViewsofMars]

There is. Papers published by authors from a US Nat'l labs have a different "modification" to the journal's copyright requirement. The publishing office at the labs will modify the copyright document of the journal to reflect the non-exclusivity of the journal's rights.

So yes, none of us holds the copyright to any of our work, since they were funded by public money.

Zz.

Zz, brief mention, there are also privately held companies that have employees who do research.

 

[ViewsofMars]

From Nature Publishing Group:

This publishers' policy applies to all journals published by the Nature Publishing Group (NPG), including the Nature journals.

NPG does not require authors of original (primary) research papers to assign copyright of their published contributions. Authors grant NPG an exclusive license to publish, in return for which they can reuse their papers in their future printed work without first requiring permission from the publisher of the journal. For commissioned articles (for example, Reviews, News and Views), copyright is retained by NPG.
[Please read on . . .]
http://www.nature.com/authors/editorial_policies/license.html

 

[rewebster]

Is that a standard procedure on people doing research?

I understand that if during the revision the author does not agree with the publisher and/or reviewers on demanded corrections he has the right to change his opinion and decide not to publish with them. Then no copyright transfer should be effective since "acceptance" was not reached yet. But I believe it is not a valid alternative to follow all the review process and reject to finish it when you fill the "acceptance" is near to occur because you know once it happens you are done with the copyright issue. I'm sure I'm not getting well that point due to my lack of experience.

you could always self-publish it, but then you'd have to self-promote, and self-distribute it, etc. also.

Like it was said, if you've signed it and dated it, it is basically copyrighted---you can 'officially' get it copyrighted (in the USA, the last time I checked it was fairly inexpensive--$6?)

I think it would really depend on how well how many people like reading it ---and how large of a range of people it would entice those to buy it, often by word of mouth...

edit:
Fees have gone up some:

http://www.copyright.gov/docs/fees.html


Online registration of a basic claim in an original work of authorship (electronic filing) $35

 

[ViewsofMars]

Like it was said, if you've signed it and dated it, it is basically copyrighted---you can 'officially' get it copyrighted (in the USA, the last time I checked it was fairly inexpensive--$6?)

Hi rewebster. Good idea! You seem to be referring to my post #45. That advise was given to me by my lawyer. I would like to add that you can mail yourself the document as well. Be sure not to open it when it arrives in the mail. I think the most important thing is keeping the rewrites of your document before it is finalized. I have boxes of those! What's interesting to me is the little scibbles and notations scattered about. It's fun to look back on stuff like that that, especially the ones from 15 or 20 years ago. There is a history of your past and what was transforming your thoughts. Awesome looking into how one's own mind unfolds over time. The rough drawings even seem to be inspiring. More importantly, it is part of the research that transpired prior to the finale.