News Margaret Thatcher dies after stroke

[russ_watters]

More like, a patient having a sudden "miracle cure" and the doc getting the credit .

Except that in this case, they were actively "treating" the patient. Perhaps it is more like the doctors treating the patient while expecting him to die, then he suddenly gets better against the odds and their expectations.

It had nothing to do with Reagan and Thatcher. There involvement is a popular myth in some circles. Reagan and Thatcher (and their respective intelligence organizations and foreign affairs bureaus) were pretty much clueless, and they were caught off-guard by the events and subsequent collapse of the SU and Warsaw pact.

Just to be clear, is there is a specific "popular myth" about this? That they had a specific influence at the moment of collapse? Or are you downplaying the impact of their entire foreign policy WRT the USSR?

I will say though, I didn't realize some people had such a strong dislike toward Thatcher in the UK (not that I should: I'm not old enough to remember the '80s that well). I'm not sure anything comparable exists in the US toward Reagan except perhaps if you were an air traffic controller. I'm not sure there is a simple answer, but is this just the result of her being a conservative activist, privatizing industries? Any specific reasons for the hate?

 

[atyy]

As we say in Poland - shirt is closer to the skin

Closer than what Not the socks, surely ...

She had a magnetic, strong personality and a degree of honesty more politicians should aspire to, even if they lack the two previous elements.

I once heard a comment that she was so stubborn because she was a scientist.

 

[AlephZero]

I'm not sure there is a simple answer, but is this just the result of her being a conservative activist, privatizing industries? Any specific reasons for the hate?

I don't think privatization had much to do with it. Plenty of people were happy to make a quick buck from the share issues.

The second biggest reason was probably what caused her downfall - attempting to sort out the taxation system by introducing the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Charge, as a flat-rate local tax. This led to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_Tax_Riots and was modified by her successor (John Major) from a flat rate to a scale based on property values, which is still operating.

The biggest reason was probably trade union reform. The mining and steel industries had been nationalized by the labour government after WWII. In about 1970, the miners went on strike and won a 27% pay award. They then struck again for more, resulting in the the Tory prime minister (Heath) calling a general election and campaigning on the slogan "who governs Britain". Heath lost. Thatcher came to power after the following Labour governments, and the miners went for "third time lucky", ostensibly in protest about a proposal to close some pits (which were still nationalized). Arguably, the miner's union made several strategic and tactical errors, and the end result was the strike was abandoned after 12 months when the union ran out of money. The union had never held a national strike ballot, and operated a policy of secondary picketing which led to extreme violence. At one of the biggest secondary picket sites there were running battles between 10,000 pickets and 5,000 police that lasted for months.

Having broken the strike, and also having a huge parliamentary majority, Thatcher then rewrote the labour relations law to prevent any repeat of this sort of thing. And given that the economy had survived a 12-month coal strike with no great ill effects, the pit closure plans were revised: the original plan was to reduce 170 deep coal mines to 150. The revised version reduced the number from 170 to 3.

The hard line left wing still regard her as the antichrist - though in his 10 years in government, Blair made no attempt to repeal any of Thatcher's trade union legislation.

 

[mheslep]

No, not really. That was Andropov and Gorbachev. It had nothing to do with Reagan and Thatcher. There involvement is a popular myth in some circles. Reagan and Thatcher (and their respective intelligence organizations and foreign affairs bureaus) were pretty much clueless, and they were caught off-guard by the events and subsequent collapse of the SU and Warsaw pact. It was a bit like a doctor being unaware of a cancer in a patient who deteriorates rapidly.

The myth is that the collapse "...had nothing to do with Reagan and Thatcher". This is not to say the pair were wholly responsible for the collapse of a deeply flawed and corrupt system, but they had a great deal to do with the timing.

Reagan, unlike his predecessors, set out with deliberate intent to collapse the SU: a sharp reduction of oil prices, aggressive stance of US Naval power, SDI, http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,159069,00.html, support for the Afghan resistance against the Soviet occupation, direct support for and mention of dissidents inside the SU, etc.

Edit:
Here's a video of Thatcher visiting communist Poland in 1988. While there, she demanded to see Solidarity leader Lech Walesa. See sailed into the shipyard in Gdansk, causing a near riot of shipyard workers who rallied to see her, and laid a wreath at the monument to shipyard workers killed in 1970 by Polish security forces.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/video/qt/mini_p02_09_300.html

Whatever else one might say about this kind of engagement, it was directly opposed to the go-along policy of former PMs like Heath, Wilson, and Callaghan. Same goes for Reagan's predecessors. With the help of a Ford, a Carter, and perhaps a Heath instead of Reagan/Thatcher, then Wojciech Jaruzelski's descendants might still be clinging to power in a communist Poland ala North Korea.

Lech Walesa's opinion of the impact of Thatcher on the Polish Solidarity movement:

Without this meeting there would have been *no* victory, that's for sure. There would have been delay, greater difficulties, or even our destruction

 

[aquitaine]

Here's a video of Thatcher visiting communist Poland in 1988. While there, she demanded to see Solidarity leader Lech Walesa. See sailed into the shipyard in Gdansk, causing a near riot of shipyard workers who rallied to see her, and laid a wreath at the monument to shipyard workers killed in 1970 by Polish security forces.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandinghe...02_09_300.html

Whatever else one might say about this kind of engagement, it was directly opposed to the go-along policy of former PMs like Heath, Wilson, and Callaghan. Same goes for Reagan's predecessors. With the help of a Ford, a Carter, and perhaps a Heath instead of Reagan/Thatcher, then Wojciech Jaruzelski's descendants might still be clinging to power in a communist Poland ala North Korea.

Ah, The Commanding Heights. An excellent documentary on the economic history of the 20th century. It did talk a lot about Thatcher and Reagan's reforms as well as the collapse of socialism and communism and the role their policies played in hurrying it along.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I was surprised that State sent only mission staff and former members of government. I would have expected the First Lady, or at least a Deputy Secretary of State.