Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has died

[chemisttree]

Too late! It seems he's taken a 'turn' for the worse.

 

[nikkkom]

>> But I had the impression he really was concerned about the poor in his country. He just had no idea how to truly help them.

I'm not sure if he really cared or not, but he definitely knew that the way to help them (and thus himself) was to spend oil money on them.

Today's headlines: Venezuela runs out of cash to print more money.

Where are all the lefties who just 5 years ago voiced wet dreams that Chavistas and other lefty governments of South America will show the evil empire of USA how miserable and powerless it is?

Did anyone give Bernie Sanders these news to read?

What a huge surprise. Socialism failed again. It's always such a shock. It should have worked.
No worries, they will try again. I just pray they will try it somewhere far from where I am...

 

[micromass]

Did anyone give Bernie Sanders these news to read?

Are you implying Sanders supported Chavez?

What a huge surprise. Socialism failed again.

There are many socialist countries in Europe. They are doing pretty fine. They're among the best countries to live in. Sweden, Norway, etc. That is what Sanders is going for.

 

[nikkkom]

Are you implying Sanders supported Chavez?

I'm implying Sanders ideas are quite more socialistic that I am willing to tolerate.

There are many socialist countries in Europe. They are doing pretty fine.

Wrong. There are *no* socialist countries in Europe. That's part of the reason why they are doing fine.

Socialism is an economic doctrine which says that most, or even all, economic activity should be state-operated. No European country has that - in all of them, privately held businesses are the majority. (edit: I forgot Belarus. Maybe there it is a minority)

 

[micromass]

I'm implying Sanders ideas are quite more socialistic that I am willing to tolerate.
Wrong. There are *no* socialist countries in Europe. That's part of the reason why they are doing fine.

Socialism is an economic doctrine which says that most, or even all, economic activity should be state-operated. No European country has that - in all of them, privately help businesses are the majority.

Democratic socialist parties have been ruling many European countries for decades.

 

[mheslep]

Democratic Socialist is a party name or type. The name no more implies a policy of textbook socialism than Christian Democrat necessarily implies a party devoted to theocracy.

Actual socialist policies have been on the decline for some time among most European governments. Industries actually owned by the government occur (NHS) but have become rare, unlike the widespread nationalization that occurred in Venuzuela under Chavez that has wrecked that economy. Britain began adopting private highways. Even Sweden has allowed universal access to private education in grade schools (state funded), up I think to 14% there last I looked.

 

[micromass]

Democratic Socialist is a party name.

Yes, it is. But there's the difference between Americans and Europeans. When an American has to name a socialist, it would be Chavez or Marx. But when European are asked to name a socialist, it would be social democrats who take part in government every single day in Europe. Chavez and Marx would be named communists instead. Like it or not, but that's the way we use the term "socialist" in Europe nowadays.

 

[mheslep]

...Like it or not, but that's the way we use the term "socialist" in Europe nowadays.

Apparently not. Nikkkom is european. Furthermore, he or she took the trouble to define exactly what was meant in using the term in connection to this thread on Chavez. A digression on what 310 million "Americans" think or what Europeans think can only confuse or derail discussion of the socialistic policies implemented by Chavez, their legacy, and similarities to government policies elsewhere.

 

[micromass]

Apparently not. Nikkkom is european. Furthermore, he or she took the trouble to define exactly what was meant in using the term in connection to this thread on Chavez. A digression on what 310 million "Americans" think or what Europeans think can only confuse or derail discussion of the socialistic policies implemented by Chavez, their legacy, and similarities to government policies elsewhere.

It's very relevant, since not everybody thinks the same thing when they hear "socialism". Whatever the original historic meaning was, for many the meaning has changed for many.

 

[nikkkom]

Democratic socialist parties have been ruling many European countries for decades.

Can you give a few specific examples of "Democratic socialist" parties ruling in Europe?
To be precise: not "Social Democrats" (social is not the same as socialist), but "Socialist Democrats" or "Democratic socialists".

 

[micromass]

Can you give a few specific examples of "Democratic socialist" parties ruling in Europe?
To be precise: not "Social Democrats" (social is not the same as socialist), but "Socialist Democrats" or "Democratic socialists".

I do mean social democrats (and not the Leninist democratic socialism). And 99.9% of people I know and talk to every day identify "socialist" with "social democrat".

 

[nikkkom]

I do mean social democrats (and not the Leninist democratic socialism). And 99.9% of people I know and talk to every day identify "socialist" with "social democrat".

Looks like you conveniently moved the goalposts as it suits you.

 

[micromass]

Looks like you conveniently moved the goalposts as it suits you.

I'm sad my posts appear to do that to you. I had no intention of doing that.

 

[nikkkom]

Exchange rate in Venezuela

 

[Astronuc]

Do we need a new thread on the dismal legacy of Hugo Chavez and his successor Nicolás Maduro.

Apparently the Chinese can't make it work. Chinese bullet train in Venezuela stalls as alliance derails
https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinese-bullet-train-venezuela-stalls-alliance-derails-050357015.html

ZARAZA, Venezuela (AP) — It was once billed as a model of socialist fraternity: South America's first high-speed train, powered by Chinese technology, crisscrossing Venezuela to bring development to its backwater plains. Now all but abandoned, it has become a symbol of economic collapse — and a strategic relationship gone adrift.

Where dozens of modern buildings once stood, cattle now graze on grass growing amid the rubble of the project's gutted and vandalized factory. A red arched sign in Chinese and Spanish is all that remains of what until 16 months ago was a bustling complex of 800 workers.

Meanwhile - Venezuela crisis: Maduro threatens seizure of closed factories
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36294939

A top International Monetary Fund economist says Venezuela could reach “total economic collapse” in 12-18 months.
Judging from similar cases in Latin America, it’s hard to see how President Nicolas Maduro can finish his term in 2019.
Democracies in the region should collectively press Maduro to respect democratic rules, and avoid a military coup.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/andres-oppenheimer/article73657547.html

U.S. intelligence warns Venezuela is on the verge of collapse
http://www.latimes.com/nation/ct-us-intelligence-venezuela-collapse-20160514-story.html

With dire shortages of basic goods, a looming foreign debt payment, horrific street crime and intransigent political divisions, Venezuela is in danger of collapsing into waves of deadly violence, U.S. intelligence officials warned Friday.

Venezuela, which controls the world's largest reserves of crude oil, is in the throes of a potentially explosive political stalemate after opposition parties gained a majority in the national congress in elections late last year.

 

[mheslep]

Do we need a new thread on the dismal legacy of Hugo Chavez and his successor Nicolás Maduro.

Yet the outcome of misery never seems to deter people from applauding the policies of these socialists, regardless of how many https://panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2016/05/04/in-venezuela-residents-resort-to-hunting-dogs-on-the-street/

Current UK labor party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, 2013:

Thanks Hugo Chavez for showing that the poor matter and wealth can be shared. He made massive contributions to Venezuela & a very wide world

US President Carter, 2013:

President Chávez will be remembered for his bold assertion of autonomy and independence for Latin American governments and for his formidable communication skills and personal connection with supporters in his country and abroad to whom he gave hope and empowerment. During his 14-year tenure, Chávez joined other leaders in Latin America and the Caribbean to create new forms of integration. Venezuelan poverty rates were cut in half, and millions received identification documents for the first time allowing them to participate more effectively in their country's economic and political life.

The Nation editor, Katrina vanden Heuvel, 2006:

...how many know that he laid out an innovative four-point program to renew and reform the UN--and spoke eloquently about how and why this "era is giving birth to a heart"?

The usual cheering from Hollywood, i.e. Michael Moore and Sean Penn has become a cliche.

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/2012/08/07/sean-penn/sean_penn_hugo_chavez_venezuela.jpg

Maybe Penn should eat a little dog before flying off to hug the next socialist authoritarian.

WSJ commentary

 

[nikkkom]

I created a generic "Venezuela news" thread

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/venezuela-news.872274/

 

[nikkkom]

Do we need a new thread on the dismal legacy of Hugo Chavez and his successor Nicolás Maduro.

I created a generic "Venezuela news" thread, but it was deleted. ?!

 

[Astronuc]

I created a generic "Venezuela news" thread, but it was deleted. ?!

There was an image of a stack of Venezuelan notes and one US $100 note. There was a single comment about exchange rate, but no other commentary. Opening posts in a thread require more substantive information, much like an abstract to a journal article or an introductory section of an essay.

The story in Venezuela is one of corruption and mismanagement, as opposed to reform - or how to wreck a nation, or crash a ship of state upon the rocks.