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andyrk
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If we take one end of a mass-less string and pull it with force F, would the string have any tension in it? Would it have any tension when we pull it with force F from both the ends?
Yes, but what I am asking is that why would Tension arise in the first place?AdityaDev said:If I take a small element dx of the string, and if T1 acts on one side and T2 acts on the other, net force is ##T_1-T_2=ma=0##. So T1=T2.
This means that net force on every element of string is zero.
From the equation of in post 4, the force on every segment of the thread is zero. Then why does it need tension?Orodruin: 5053035 said:Why would it not? What is your understanding of tension?
That tension arises only when something is pulling at some particle. So the point which is being pulled with F has some pulling force on it. But what is pulling on the particles behind that first point at which force is being applied?Orodruin said:Why would it not? What is your understanding of tension?
The fact that you are using T1 and T2 on dx element itself means that tension is present.AdityaDev said:From the equation of in post 4, the force on every segment of the thread is zero. Then why does it need tension?
AdityaDev said:From the equation of in post 4, the force on every segment of the thread is zero. Then why does it need tension?
andyrk said:That tension arises only when something is pulling at some particle.
So how would you explain that different parts of the string impart forces on other parts so that tension exists throughout the string?Orodruin said:This is wrong. Tension (at point x) is the force that acts from one part of the string on the other part (for a given cut at the point x of the string).
AdityaDev said:also, when the string has some mass and when equal forces are applied on both ends, since acceleration of body is zero, again the tension in each segment of the string has to be F right?
So how would you explain that this same tension exists at all points of the string besides the first? We know that F exists on the very first element. But what about the rest?Orodruin said:It has to, otherwise the string would be accelerating as per Newton's 2nd law as shown in post #4 by Aditya. If you let one of the ends of the element you consider be an actual end of the string (where you are pulling with force F), the force on the other side of the element must also be F (but in the opposite direction). Thus, the tension in the string must be F.
andyrk said:So how would you explain that this same tension exists at all points of the string besides the first? What force pulls on the other elements of the string?
How do you know that one part pulls the other part with the same force as the first part was pulled by? Why can't they be different?Orodruin said:One part of the string pulls on the other part of string and vice versa. If it did not, the different parts of the string would accelerate, as post #4 clearly shows. This is the very definition of what tension is.
Third law.andyrk said:How do you know that one part pulls the other part with the same force as the first part was pulled by? They can be different too right?
There are 2 parts. One is right at the end of the string, which is being pulled by force F. The second part which is adjacent to this part but not in direct contact with the point at which the force is being applied. So how does this second part get pulley by force F?AdityaDev said:Third law.
when one part pulls the nearby part, then that nearby part will pull the first part with the same force.
By the internal forces of the string, how else?andyrk said:So how does this second part get pulley by force F?
andyrk said:The string is being pulled from only one direction. So it should accelerate.
Right, but what I was asking was would tension exist in such a case or not? (String is massless and being pulled from only one direction)Orodruin said:You are referring to the case when you only pull one end? You simply cannot do that without giving the string infinite acceleration (if it is massless). I hope you realize that what breaks down in this case is your assumption that the string is massless. If the string has even the tiniest mass, the acceleration will not be infinite and the tension will change along the string depending on the string's density.
andyrk said:Right, but what I was asking was would tension exist in such a case or not? (String is massless and being pulled from only one direction)
And if I say that I am fine with infinite acceleration, then what would the tension be?Orodruin said:Not unless you like infinite accelerations. Generally, it just means you neglected a mass that you probably should not have neglected and the acceleration is large, but not infinite.
This just results in a math fail. It's like asking if God can create a rock so big he can't lift it. It doesn't have an answer. Indeed, even stating that you apply a force to this string is impossible. So you're going to have to decide what you want to get out of this problem.andyrk said:And if I say that I am fine with infinite acceleration, then what would the tension be?
A massless string is a hypothetical string with no mass, meaning it has no weight and does not contribute to the overall mass of a system.
While a massless string does not have any mass, it can still experience tension and be pulled by a force. This is because the force applied to the string is transmitted through its length, causing it to stretch and experience tension.
A massless string is often used in theoretical physics and engineering problems because it simplifies calculations and allows for easier analysis of systems. It also helps to understand the behavior of objects connected by strings, such as pulleys and pendulums.
No, a massless string is a theoretical concept and does not exist in reality. All strings have some amount of mass, no matter how small, and therefore cannot be truly massless.
The tension in a massless string is equal throughout its length, so any objects connected to the string will experience the same amount of force. This tension can also be used to calculate the acceleration and motion of the objects connected to the string.