Math Education: Encouraging Mediocrity and the Negative Effects of Algebra

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the necessity and impact of algebra in education, particularly its role in student dropout rates and overall attitudes towards mathematics. Participants explore various perspectives on how mathematics, especially algebra, is taught and perceived, touching on educational philosophy, student engagement, and the implications of educational standards.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that algebra is a significant barrier to student success, contributing to high dropout rates, particularly among disadvantaged students.
  • Others defend algebra as a necessary skill that helps identify students' capacity for abstract thinking.
  • A viewpoint suggests that the problem lies not in the subject matter but in the unrealistic expectations that all students should achieve perfect success.
  • Several participants express concerns about the introduction of mathematics to young children, advocating for a more contextual and integrated approach to teaching math alongside other subjects.
  • There are claims that the current educational system may lower standards, leading to a lack of preparedness for higher education.
  • Some participants challenge the notion that certain students cannot learn math without practical applications, arguing that this perspective underestimates students' potential.
  • One participant shares a personal anecdote about developing a love for math later in life, suggesting that early negative experiences can deter students from engaging with the subject.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion features multiple competing views on the necessity and effectiveness of algebra in education. There is no consensus on whether algebra should be retained in the curriculum or how best to teach mathematics to young students.

Contextual Notes

Participants express various assumptions about student capabilities and the role of educational standards, highlighting the complexity of teaching methods and the subjective nature of proficiency in mathematics.

  • #91


I had a rocky start with algebra in the 8th grade. The teacher said unknown constants are represented by lower case letters from the beginning of the alphabet while unknown variables are represented by lower case letters from the end of the alphabet. He gave an example with something like ax-b=0. Solving for x we get x=b/a. I asked why x is a variable and a and b are constants. If you fix the values of a and b, you also fix the value of x. I don't remember his exact answer, but it was something like you're given a and b and solving for x. For some reason, I had a problem with that.
 
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  • #92


They should teach algebra based physics so the students see how useful algebra is. They said in the article that algorithms are mathematical reasoning which is wrong. If they actually taught mathematical reasoning then this would not be an issue because the value of algebra would be imminent.
 
  • #93


xdrgnh said:
They should teach algebra based physics so the students see how useful algebra is. They said in the article that algorithms are mathematical reasoning which is wrong. If they actually taught mathematical reasoning then this would not be an issue because the value of algebra would be imminent.

Mathematical reasoning sort of falls into your lap once you get sufficiently comfortable with algebra, I don't think that is something that can really be taught.
 
  • #94


Mathematical reasoning in the real world means being able to quantify. Algebra teaches that just fine
 
  • #95


xdrgnh said:
Mathematical reasoning in the real world means being able to quantify.

What does this mean?
 
  • #96


It means getting sense of how much and how little a specific quantity is and being able to express it as a mathematical model. The problem is that mathematical modeling isn't really taught. All they teach are algorithms and students get the idea that it's trivial.
 
  • #97


I think a big problem with maths education is that in modern western society it is seen as 'cool' to suck at basic stuff.
The number of times I've heard someone tell me about how they "can't do maths" in an attempt to impress me or god knows what else.. it's unreal.
I've witnessed the same thing about cooking - someone asks me what I did last night, I tell them I made bolognese or something simple like that and I get regaled with tales about how they manage to burn baked beans.
It's not that I'm trying to be superior to anyone because I can cook and do maths, it's just enfuriating that people seem to think being unable to do simple things is something to brag about..

edit;
dang it, how come I always get to start a new page >.>
 
  • #98


genericusrnme said:
I think a big problem with maths education is that in modern western society it is seen as 'cool' to suck at basic stuff.
The number of times I've heard someone tell me about how they "can't do maths" in an attempt to impress me or god knows what else.. it's unreal.
I've witnessed the same thing about cooking - someone asks me what I did last night, I tell them I made bolognese or something simple like that and I get regaled with tales about how they manage to burn baked beans.
It's not that I'm trying to be superior to anyone because I can cook and do maths, it's just enfuriating that people seem to think being unable to do simple things is something to brag about..

edit;
dang it, how come I always get to start a new page >.>

This is something I've noticed, too, that I just don't get! Why is it so acceptable to be bad at math?

What would people think if they heard someone say, "Oh, reading? I don't read at all, I've always been so bad at reading! I can't read beyond an elementary level -- really! Can someone read this menu aloud for me, heehee?"

Is that really supposed to be cute?!?

/rant


well ok not really /rant because I'm still worked up :mad: it really ticks me off!
 
  • #99


The Western society has a firm grasp of the notion that mathematics is only for the geniuses who are naturally gifted at it, and that their lowly minds can't handle such strenuous activities. Therefore, they may feel like they are in common company when they, oddly enough, brag about not understanding math.

Everywhere else seems to have held on to the idea that hard work can accomplish a lot, and it just so happens that hard work seems to do wonders for learning math...

Now comes the problem of dumbing down the curriculum in a pathetic attempt to raise percentages. Somebody earlier mentioned how laziness may or may not directly correlate with poor math scores: I believe that it does.

In elementary and middle school, everything was easy for me. I am by no means smart, but I was able to pull off straight A's without ever studying. I got put into an ELP program (Extended Learning Program) which was for the "gifted" students. Even in that class, it was merely a replacement for English and Literature classes, so I was pushed to write well, improve my grammar, and give in-depth presentations; math was never mentioned.

Needless to say, I developed the nasty attitude and misconception that I could breeze through school without ever cracking open a book outside of class. Even in my freshman year of high school, I got mainly A's, with two B's, with that same shoddy work ethic. (Not surprisingly, one of the B's was in math).

My epiphany came during my sophomore year, where I realized that I needed to actually work hard if I wanted to do something with my life.

Essentially, a severely dumbed down curriculum (at least to me, maybe not to everyone) led to my development of a bad work ethic, and eventually caused me to not fully apply myself in math classes, which is why I am now self-studying to make up for my previous rejection of anything to do with math. Dumbing down academic curriculum is harmful for the very reason that the real-world is not dumbed-down; you're essentially giving children the idea that they don't need to work hard in order to excel in life, which couldn't be further from the truth.
 
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  • #100


Absolute agree ^.

An interesting thing is that at least for mathematics, it has been found that while Asian students are less confident about their abilities, they do better than their US counterparts who are funnily enough, more confident about their abilities in mathematics.

I would have no problem in supporting your conclusions mentioned above especially in the context of the above statement.
 
  • #101


lisab said:
This is something I've noticed, too, that I just don't get! Why is it so acceptable to be bad at math?

What would people think if they heard someone say, "Oh, reading? I don't read at all, I've always been so bad at reading! I can't read beyond an elementary level -- really! Can someone read this menu aloud for me, heehee?"

Is that really supposed to be cute?!?

/rant


well ok not really /rant because I'm still worked up :mad: it really ticks me off!

My guess would be that it's simply a human defense reaction. If you've already realized (even if just unconsciously) that you are not very good at math, and don't want to spend much time on it, then I guess the brain would much rather turn the whole thing into a "choice", like you chose not to learn math (because who needs it anyway) rather than live the rest of your life knowing that you failed it.
 
  • #102


lisab said:
This is something I've noticed, too, that I just don't get! Why is it so acceptable to be bad at math?

I'd guess that it's because most people don't use any math more advanced than basic arithmetic. Combine that with the stereotype of a smart person or scientist being a complete bumbling idiot in "real life" and I can easily see why.
 
  • #104


genericusrnme said:
I think a big problem with maths education is that in modern western society it is seen as 'cool' to suck at basic stuff.
It's sour grapes: when the fox couldn't reach the grapes he 'decided' they were probably sour anyway.
 
  • #105


genericusrnme said:
I think a big problem with maths education is that in modern western society it is seen as 'cool' to suck at basic stuff.
The number of times I've heard someone tell me about how they "can't do maths" in an attempt to impress me or god knows what else.. it's unreal.
I've witnessed the same thing about cooking - someone asks me what I did last night, I tell them I made bolognese or something simple like that and I get regaled with tales about how they manage to burn baked beans.
It's not that I'm trying to be superior to anyone because I can cook and do maths, it's just enfuriating that people seem to think being unable to do simple things is something to brag about..

edit;
dang it, how come I always get to start a new page >.>

It reminds me of an ignorant and superficial version of jante law as an attempt to conform.
 
  • #106


genericusrnme said:
I think a big problem with maths education is that in modern western society it is seen as 'cool' to suck at basic stuff.

And it seems to be exploited accorcing Noam Chomsky

8. To encourage the public to be complacent with mediocrity

Promote the public to believe that the fact is fashionable to be stupid, vulgar and uneducated…

Thanks for the link, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=4021593#post4021593
 
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