Mathematics and unprovable assumptions

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    Assumptions Mathematics
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of mathematics, particularly focusing on the idea of unprovable assumptions within mathematical frameworks. Participants explore the philosophical implications of mathematics as a language, its axiomatic foundations, and the relationship between mathematics and science.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Philosophical exploration

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that many fundamental tenets of mathematics are unprovable assumptions, drawing parallels to religion.
  • Others argue that mathematics does not rely on unprovable assumptions, asserting that every theorem can be proven within its axiomatic system.
  • One participant emphasizes that axioms are not claimed to be absolutely true and can be assumed false to explore alternative geometries.
  • Another viewpoint posits that mathematics is merely a language that communicates ideas about quantities and relationships, not a science or philosophy in itself.
  • Some participants express that mathematics operates within the confines of its axioms and cannot prove the axioms themselves, challenging the notion that it is free from unprovable assumptions.
  • A participant highlights the distinction between mathematics and physics, arguing that physics relies on observational truths, while mathematics can produce statements that may not correspond to reality.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether mathematics relies on unprovable assumptions, with no consensus reached. Some maintain that mathematics is a self-contained system, while others argue it is fundamentally linked to empirical observations and scientific principles.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in the discussion include varying interpretations of what constitutes an unprovable assumption, the dependence on definitions of mathematics and science, and the unresolved nature of the relationship between mathematical axioms and their applicability to the physical world.

  • #61
The whole point of mathematics is that it is applicable to a variety of fields. Newton created calculus in order to solve problems in physics (specifically, the motion of planets). Yet people who are planning to use mathematics to solve problems in biology, psychology, or economics learn the same calculus.

That works precisely because axiomatic systems have "undefined words". In order to apply theorems from calculus (or linear algebra, or differential equations, or tensor theory) I have only to decide what meanings I will give to those undefined terms and then show that the axioms apply (at least approximately- in any real application, we have measurements that are only approximate) and then know that the theorems will be true for this application (again, at least approximately).

That's why mathematics is not "like religion". The one thing that all "Christian Religions" have in common (Jeff Lawson's referentce to "The Christian church" is naive at best- there are may different "Christian churchs" with widely varying beliefs) is that "Jesus Christ was an aspect of God that became human". Certainly no good Christian that I know would take the point of view that that is "true in some systems but not in others" which is exactly what mathematicians do.

No mathematician believes, for example, that "through any point not on a given line there exist a line through that point parallel to that given line" (Playfair's axiom). Mathematician accept that as an axiom for a certain axiomatic system (Euclidean geometry) which has proved to be a good model for many applications but not for some others. We can accept it as true (not assert that it is true in any universal sense) for some applications and as not true for others. I don't know of any religion that does that!
 
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