Matter Lagrangian for perfect fluid

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on identifying the matter Lagrangian for a perfect fluid within the context of general relativity, specifically how it relates to the stress-energy tensor in an FRW metric. Participants explore theoretical formulations and references to literature on the topic.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the standard definition of the stress-energy tensor and inquires about the corresponding matter Lagrangian for a perfect fluid.
  • Another participant references a paper on arXiv that may contain relevant information, noting the existence of additional literature that is not freely accessible.
  • A different participant proposes a specific ansatz for the matter Lagrangian, suggesting a form that incorporates density and pressure, and derives coefficients that lead to a simplified expression.
  • Another participant mentions sections from Dirac's book and other texts as potential sources for answers, indicating that established literature may provide insights into the matter Lagrangian.
  • One participant claims to have found that the perfect fluid Lagrangian is simply -ρ, reasoning that this aligns with known forms for other types of Lagrangians, while also expressing doubt about their earlier calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the form of the matter Lagrangian, with some proposing specific forms and others referencing established literature. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the definitive expression for the Lagrangian.

Contextual Notes

Some participants acknowledge potential limitations in their reasoning or calculations, and there is a reliance on various texts and papers that may contain differing interpretations or formulations of the matter Lagrangian.

ramparts
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The stress-energy tensor is usually defined in standard GR treatments as

T_{\mu\nu} = -\frac{2}{\sqrt{-g}}\frac{\delta(\sqrt{g}L_m)}{\delta g^{\mu\nu}})

with the Lm the matter Lagrangian.

I'm curious what Lm is for a perfect fluid with density ρ and pressure P that would lead to the standard stress-energy tensor

T_{\mu\nu} = (\rho+P)u^\mu u^\nu + Pg_{\mu\nu}

in an FRW metric.
 
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Paywall is fine by me, I'm at a university. I'll take a look through that paper, thanks - most of the actions have more information than I need (since it should just be a function of density and pressure) but I'll read through in more depth soon. I just had a go at doing something very simple which seems to work to me, which is to write the ansatz

L_m = (a \rho + bP) g^{\mu \nu} u_\mu u_\nu + (c\rho + dP) g^{\mu\nu}g_{\mu\nu}

so you can differentiate Lm with respect to the inverse metric and compare to the usual perfect fluid stress-energy tensor, using the fact that the definition of the stress-energy tensor is equivalent to

T_{\mu\nu} = -2\frac{\delta L_m}{\delta g^{\mu\nu}} + L_m g_{\mu \nu}.

Doing this gives a=b=-1/2, c=-d=-1/4 so that you have

L_m = \frac{1}{2} (-\rho + 3P)

which is nice, since it's just 1/2 the trace of the stress-energy tensor.

If there's some gross problem in doing this hopefully someone will point it out!
 
Section 25 and 27 of the 69-page book on GR by the great Dirac has an answer to your question. You may also want to check L&L books (Fields, vol. 2, or Fluid Mechanics) or the old book by Tolman.
 
dextercioby said:
Section 25 and 27 of the 69-page book on GR by the great Dirac has an answer to your question. You may also want to check L&L books (Fields, vol. 2, or Fluid Mechanics) or the old book by Tolman.

Thanks. It looks like there's a copy in my department's library which I'll look at, but for the benefit of people reading who don't have that, is there an executive summary you could give us?
 
So I've checked a couple of books and the paper PeterDonis posted (thanks!) and it seems the perfect fluid Lagrangian is actually just -ρ. Frankly that makes sense because the thing I thought it was vanishes for a radiation fluid, which is clearly wrong. L=-ρ fits the usual form for the electromagnetic Lagrangian and also a scalar Lagrangian so it makes sense to me.

The way I worked it out about must have been somewhat sloppy!
 

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