Measuring The RATE of Probability Change

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around measuring the rate of change of probability or probability density functions in stochastic processes, particularly in contexts such as quantum mechanics and hypothetical scenarios involving dice. Participants explore theoretical and practical approaches to quantify these changes over time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that traditional calculus definitions of derivatives do not apply to stochastic processes, necessitating new definitions such as those found in Ito's calculus.
  • Others propose using the Stratonovich Integral for certain physics problems, although they admit limited experience with it.
  • One participant discusses measuring the rate of change of sample parameters like mean and variance, suggesting the use of functions to define these rates.
  • Another viewpoint emphasizes that if the stochastic process is Markovian, a transition probability matrix could be utilized to describe the evolution of population states.
  • Some participants argue that if the distribution evolves according to deterministic rules, parameters can be estimated using maximum likelihood methods, while non-deterministic rules may require Hidden Markov Models or the EM algorithm.
  • A later reply connects the discussion to physical processes, noting that temperature changes in thermodynamics follow deterministic laws, which may parallel the evolution of probability distributions in the examples provided.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a variety of perspectives on the appropriate methods for measuring probability changes, with no consensus reached on a single approach or model. Disagreements exist regarding the applicability of certain mathematical frameworks and the nature of the stochastic processes discussed.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the dependence on specific assumptions about the stochastic processes, the definitions of terms used, and the unresolved mathematical steps in applying various proposed methods.

LarryS
Gold Member
Messages
361
Reaction score
34
Suppose that we have a stochastic process and we suspect that the probability/probability density function changes with time, changes slowly in relation to the sampling rate.

Two examples might be:

1. A QM experiment in which the source of identically prepared particles is not quite a stationary process.
2. Repeated rolling of a hypothetical/magical 6-faced die for which the probability for the faces is not uniform and changes slowly with time.

From a practical standpoint, how would we measure how fast the overall probability function is changing?

(I do not have a strong background in statistics).

As always, thanks in advance.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Just as in Classical-calculus you define the derivative (the rate of change) as the inverse of integration (area under a curve) via the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus - or through the use of limits. However, this definition is not suitable for Stochastic Calculus because (now I am doing some hand-waving here) when you take a Taylor Expansion of a Random Variable the Delta-x's tend to the variance of the distribution and NOT to zero as we would see in classical calculus. Therefore the classic definition of a derivative does not work for stochastic processes and we need a new definition.

This is the basis behind Ito's calculus, and, in particular, Ito's Lemma which allows you to calculate the the derivative of a stochastic process.

I am not too sure about 1. but I would suggest using the Stratonovich Integral. I have never used it but I've heard it is useful for physics problems.

For 2. however, rolling a magical die such as this would fall right into the scope of Ito Calculus. I believe it is something you can model this with a Probability Space and then use the Radon-Nikodym derivative.
 
referframe said:
From a practical standpoint, how would we measure how fast the overall probability function is changing?

(I do not have a strong background in statistics).

As always, thanks in advance.

It seems you're really concerned with the rate of change of the sample parameters; that is, the mean and variance. These are independent variables in your sampling distribution assuming the population has a Gaussian (normal) distribution. From your estimates of the these population parameters, define the functions:


[tex]G_{1}=\frac{d\mu_{0}}{dt}[/tex] and [tex]G_{2}=\frac{d\mu_{1}}{dt}[/tex]

Where the [tex]\mu_{0}[/tex] is the population mean and [tex]\mu_{1}[/tex] is the population variance.

then find [tex]F(G_{1},G_{2})[/tex] where F(Gi) is the rate of change of the PDF (F'(x)).
 
Last edited:
referframe said:
Suppose that we have a stochastic process and we suspect that the probability/probability density function changes with time, changes slowly in relation to the sampling rate.

Note we are not necessarily talking about a non stationary stochastic process here. If the process were Markovian (probabilistic transitions of population states) we could use a transition probability matrix. The functional notation would then simply describe some generalization or expectation of the population's evolution. However, without that assumption, the alternative is that the evolution of the population parameters is (macroscopically) deterministic.
 
Last edited:
referframe said:
From a practical standpoint, how would we measure how fast the overall probability function is changing?

If the distribution evolves according to some deterministic rule, e.g. P[X(k)=6]=a*k+b for the dice example, then the parameters (a,b) can be estimated from observed dice rolls by the maximum likelihood method, and the rate of change of probability follows directly.

If the distribution evolves according to a non-deterministic rule (e.g. P[X(k)=6]=P[X(k-1)=6]+c*Z(k) where Z is random) then it should still be possible but may require techniques of Hidden Markov Models or the EM algorithm.

HTH
 
bpet said:
If the distribution evolves according to some deterministic rule, e.g. P[X(k)=6]=a*k+b for the dice example, then the parameters (a,b) can be estimated from observed dice rolls by the maximum likelihood method, and the rate of change of probability follows directly.

If the distribution evolves according to a non-deterministic rule (e.g. P[X(k)=6]=P[X(k-1)=6]+c*Z(k) where Z is random) then it should still be possible but may require techniques of Hidden Markov Models or the EM algorithm.

HTH

Based on the examples the OP gave, I was thinking in terms of physical processes such as in thermodynamics. Temperature (absolute) is the average kinetic energy of molecules (or simply 'particles') in a sample. This kinetic energy follows a distribution at the particle level. There are various statistics which apply depending on the physical characteristics of the substance. However, at the macro level the change in temperature with respect to change in energy follows deterministic laws in ideal gases and in pure substances where the specific heat is known for various phase states. In the OP's case it seems a relatively small number of "prepared" particles are involved, so the evolution of the PDF may be important. In general, Fermi-Dirac statistics are calculated in terms of the mean number of particles in a given state.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
631
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
4K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K