Mechanical Energy Based Civilization?

[bob012345]

Just for fun, suppose electrical energy had never been developed but technology had continued to advance after Classical Physics was well understood. What do you suppose the technology would look like by now in a fictional alternative timeline?

 

[.Scott]

Clockwork. Venus Rover

 

[bob012345]

Ok, but I wonder what that would be like after 150 years of mechanical development? And would we all have some kind of general mechanical power hooked up to our houses, businesses ect.?

 

[.Scott]

We do have mechanical power hooked up to our homes. I have used it to pump out an aquarium.

Venturi Sink Pump

 

[Baluncore]

What do you suppose the technology would look like by now in a fictional alternative timeline?

Hydraulics and pneumatics would replace electric motors.
Diesel and steam engines would be common.
Shares in the railways would be a good investment.
Aircraft would have diesel engines.
Wind and water mills would still be widely used.

Computations would be mechanical, or by high speed pneumatic logic circuits.
Punched card data would be processed mechanically, or pneumatically.

We would communicate over distance by reflecting sunlight with mirrors.
Lighting would be by gas, or chemical phosphorescence.

Books would be used for education.

 

[bob012345]

Perhaps steam could power a general system of mechanical or fluidic motion in a closed loop around a city?

 

[bob012345]

Hydraulics and pneumatics would replace electric motors.
Diesel and steam engines would be common.
Shares in the railways would be a good investment.
Aircraft would have diesel engines.
Wind and water mills would still be widely used.

Computations would be mechanical, or by high speed pneumatic logic circuits.
Punched card data would be processed mechanically, or pneumatically.

We would communicate over distance by reflecting sunlight with mirrors.
Lighting would be by gas, or chemical phosphorescence.

Books would be used for education.

I’m interested in thinking how far they could push it. For example, mechanical transistors at the sub-millimeter level. Mechanical displays screens with thousands of pixels? Memory ‘chips’ with millions of bits?

 

[.Scott]

Long distance communications would be a problem:

 

[Baluncore]

For example, mechanical transistors at the sub-millimeter level.

Back in the 1950s we had miniature pneumatic logic gates, including flip-flops, that would work as bi-stable memory elements. The moving fluid was air, steered by air, not by mechanically changing the circuit.

 

[Baluncore]

Long distance communications would be a problem:

Diesel would replace steam.
Cars, trucks, trains, and aircraft do not need electricity.
The early applications of rockets included mail delivery between cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_mail

 

[.Scott]

Here are "modern" long-distance signaling systems

Carlisle, Mass

Naval:

 

[Klystron]

Transportation might be similar given steam, diesel and IC engines. Vacuum tubes would literally be long flexible cylinders using high and low pressure gases to send written and coded messages in containers that travel within the tubes, similar to pneumatic tube systems still in use in older office buildings and department stores. Probably pneumatics would be in much greater use, perhaps ubquitous, in place of electric appliances.

Telecommunication would be slow, clumsy, possibly nascent, compared to using electronics. For instance, telegraphs might use physical flags and telescopes. Wires might be used but would physically nudge switches and slide along guides similar to a railroad switch yard. Light signaling using chemical and natural sources such as sunlight might be highly developed. See heliographs.

Given that light would still be studied even without electronic theory, sophisticated signalling technology, possibly even chemical lasers, might develop. This may violate the OP's mechanical stricture.

If this thread were in the Science Fiction subforum, I would direct attention to a popular SF short story from 1940s where post WWII Earth lost the ability to generate and use artificial electromagnetic fields due to alien intervention. See "The Waveries" by Fred Brown.

 

[phyzguy]

In the early days of sending electrical energy to homes, there was debate as to the best method to send power to homes. It was considered to pipe high pressure air or high pressure water to homes instead of electricity.

 

[jbriggs444]

Ok, but I wonder what that would be like after 150 years of mechanical development? And would we all have some kind of general mechanical power hooked up to our houses, businesses ect.?

Cable cars

 

[russ_watters]

Just for fun, suppose electrical energy had never been developed but technology had continued to advance after Classical Physics was well understood. What do you suppose the technology would look like by now in a fictional alternative timeline?

Some HVAC still uses pneumatic controls. They can be quite sophisticated.

 

[Borek]

To some extent that's what steam punk and diesel punk are about.

 

[russ_watters]

In the early days of sending electrical energy to homes, there was debate as to the best method to send power to homes. It was considered to pipe high pressure air or high pressure water to homes instead of electricity.

How about [natural] gas? I don't think people realize how much more power a home can get from a gas hookup vs electrical. I think my townhouse's electrical system has a capacity of 24 kW, but my gas system is 290 kW.

 

[BillTre]

The ultimate of non-electrical use of energy would be biological things. However, they do have some internal "electrical power" uses.
Many very small parts whose replacement is built into the functioning of the system.
Fairly efficient. Use chemical energy. Require environments that are compatible with them (supply of energy and resources, removal of wastes).
Can make more of themselves.

 

[bob012345]

I’m wondering how to make a bright light like a headlight without burning fuel or using a chemical reaction but just using mechanical energy?

 

[Klystron]

I’m wondering how to make a bright light like a headlight without burning fuel or using a chemical reaction but just using mechanical energy?

What have you discovered so far?

Phosphorescense and fluorescence come to mind where materials could be exposed to sunlight then concentrated with lenses and parabolic reflectors but the light would not be bright. Think taillights and warning lights rather than headlights.

Cerenkov radiation does not necessarily require electricity nor strictly chemical reactions and can be quite bright, if a bit ghastly. Typical Cerenkov sources do not seem very portable, as for headlights. The Wright brothers of aircraft fame experimented with bicycle headlights powered mechanically but biographies did not reveal their experimental
light emiting components.

@BillTre appears on a productive path with biological light sources such as the (relatively) brightly lit lures used by angler fish and certain cephlapod photophores. Biolumenescent organisms can be captured and concentrated but lumen output likely weak. Of course these involve chemical reactions.

During the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake in Scotts Valley CA, several witnesses reported flashes of light from intense ground movements. Mechanical light not easily translated to vehicles but an interesting data point.

 

[Baluncore]

If infrastructure and vehicles were phosphorescent, we would not need to shine our headlights into the eyes of the oncoming traffic.

Our headlights now make up for the lack of marker lights on the objects we need to avoid. As retroreflectors become more efficient, and headlights become more powerful, we blind ourselves to the things that are not illuminated, things hidden in the contrast of the shadows.

Low energy biological or chemical lighting, should be applied to all potential targets. High energy lighting should not be used to illuminate everything, including the target.

We see the silhouette of black things, against an illuminated background. For example, trains crossing roads at night, do not reflect light. Reflectors, on the viewer's side of the track, blind the driver. Reflectors, on the opposite side of the track, would outline the moving train, in silhouette.

 

[Hornbein]

Read Girl Genius comics, available online.

 

[bob012345]

What have you discovered so far?

Phosphorescense and fluorescence come to mind where materials could be exposed to sunlight then concentrated with lenses and parabolic reflectors but the light would not be bright. Think taillights and warning lights rather than headlights.

Cerenkov radiation does not necessarily require electricity nor strictly chemical reactions and can be quite bright, if a bit ghastly. Typical Cerenkov sources do not seem very portable, as for headlights. The Wright brothers of aircraft fame experimented with bicycle headlights powered mechanically but biographies did not reveal their experimental
light emiting components.

@BillTre appears on a productive path with biological light sources such as the (relatively) brightly lit lures used by angler fish and certain cephlapod photophores. Biolumenescent organisms can be captured and concentrated but lumen output likely weak. Of course these involve chemical reactions.

During the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake in Scotts Valley CA, several witnesses reported flashes of light from intense ground movements. Mechanical light not easily translated to vehicles but an interesting data point.

I was thinking hypothetically of using mechanical energy combined with friction to make a light source.

 

[Tom.G]

I’m wondering how to make a bright light like a headlight without burning fuel or using a chemical reaction but just using mechanical energy?

If you allow burning, a Carbide Lantern comes to mind:

"Like all carbide lamps the base would be filled with calcium carbide, while the top of the lamp would hold water. Water dripping onto the calcium carbide in the lower chamber produced a chemical reaction which generated acetylene gas, which could be lit to provide a bright flame."
(from:https://summerhillcuriosities.com/e...-engineering-co-crestella-carbide-miners-lamp)

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbide_lamp

 

[jtbell]

Long distance communications would be a problem:
View attachment 357836
View attachment 357837

More seriously, optical telegraphs were developed actively in the late 1700s to early 1800s.

 

[Klystron]

I was thinking hypothetically of using mechanical energy combined with friction to make a light source.

I find this this thread both interesting historically and thought provoking.

I first thought of childhood toys (1950s) that generated considerable light and sparks by running metal strips against a grate using the same coiled spring mechanism that powered the wheels on a small model car. The light was bright enough to see outdoors in bright sunlight.

This led to considering 'sparking' devices, once common technology used for igniting gaslights and fireplaces, later discovered to be source of EM radiation and radio interference. Early mechanical igition devices for automobiles also generated EMr, though not AFAIK, in the visible light spectrum

Consider also meteors entering the Earth's atmosphere. Mechanical energy generates light (and sound) plus ionization tracks from exited elements in the atmosphere. This leads to considering cosmic rays that generate light on scintallation (from the Latin word for spark) detectors.

Perhaps these examples of light generated from mechanical sources might spark practical technology.

 

[bob012345]

View attachment 357867

More seriously, optical telegraphs were developed actively in the late 1700s to early 1800s.

View attachment 357868

Long range communication across oceans might be accomplished by a mechanically advanced civilization by generating artificial whale songs which can travel thousands of miles.

 

[robphy]

A Computer made of Lego? | Mechanical Logic - 2in1 Bricking


Mechanical Square Root and Sine Calculator | Lego Technic


A Mechanical Calculator in LEGO

 

[jedishrfu]

Computations would be mechanical, or by high speed pneumatic logic circuits.
Punched card data would be processed mechanically, or pneumatically.

or analog means like slide rules, Curtas, Addiators, abacuii, water clocks,

or mentally via Trachtenberg math, or origami folds.

 

[jedishrfu]

replacing the battery motorized part with some other type mechanical driver and the sensor with some mechaniical sensor.

 

[jedishrfu]

or a marble computer:

 

[jedishrfu]

or a water computer:

 

[jedishrfu]

replacing the battery motorized part with some other type mechanical driver and the sensor with some mechaniical sensor.

I guess the video doesn't because it doesn't fit the universe of our mechanical world. :-)

 

[Baluncore]

or analog means like slide rules, Curtas, Addiators, abacuii, ...

I see a distinction between; (1) analog calculation using nomograms or linkages; (2) digital numerical calculation; and (3) the programmed management of big alphanumeric datasets.

 

[jedishrfu]

or edge notched cards:

 

[jtbell]

I had one of these wheh I was a kid:

Digi-Comp I

 

[BillTre]

I had one of these wheh I was a kid:

View attachment 357943

Digi-Comp I

Me too.

 

[robphy]

I had one of these
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object/nmah_694509

 

[pbuk]

Just for fun, suppose electrical energy had never been developed but technology had continued to advance after Classical Physics was well understood. What do you suppose the technology would look like by now in a fictional alternative timeline?

This is the premise of the Steampunk genre: are you looking for a summary of every idea of every author, or just the good ones?

 

[bob012345]

This is the premise of the Steampunk genre: are you looking for a summary of every idea of every author, or just the good ones?

I’m not looking for Sci-fi ideas from the Steampunk genre. I’m looking for original thought among PF members regarding what such an advanced civilization might look like now.

 

[gmax137]

Some HVAC still uses pneumatic controls. They can be quite sophisticated.

Not just HVAC. Large portions of power generating plants designed in the 1960s and 70s used pneumatic controls. 1 to 5 volts, 4 to 20 mA, 3 to 15 psi, it's all the same.

 

[Klystron]

I’m not looking for Sci-fi ideas from the Steampunk genre. I’m looking for original thought among PF members regarding what such an advanced civilization might look like now.

Asking STEM members to pretend electromagnetic (EM) theory and 'electricity' never existed, constitutes what engineers might call a self-defeating criteria.

Much of modern physics derives from studying EM, particularly light. Ignoring such undermines the basis of PF's role as teachers. Would relativity exist without Maxwell's equations as basis?

After the fact, we could speculate on IDK, matter and gravitational waves as post facto basis for quantuum mechanics but not in 1925. Certainly electronics provides sensitive measurements beyond strictly mechanical means; e.g. interferometers versus beam balances.

Thus I mentioned old-timey SF sources such as "The Waveries" to provide some basis for the speculation, not to mention more modern steampunk civilizations. IOW we know about EM but cannot or do not use it for some SF-logical reason.

Otherwise, speculating on a purely mechanical technological civilization contains merit. Look to tech history for many examples of non-electrical devices.

While brushing my teeth with an electronic toothbrush, I mentally designed a purely hydraulic toothbrush powered by water pressure at the tap, not to mention a 'water pick', as improvements to a basic toothbrush. Likewise, engineers in rural Africa and Asia designed clothes and dishwashers powered by water pressure sans electronic controls due to lack of a consistent electric grid. Members have already provided a plethora of mechanical technology.

 

[Algr]

Without electricity, mechanical devices would have advanced considerably beyond what was ever made in the real world. But they would be in no way comparable to the devices we actually have now. There is probably some limit to data capacity relative to how strong a material is before reading the output wore down its shape. And of course the costs of these devices would be dramatically higher.
No TV or radio. Record players and films could be synced, but not loud enough for large audiences. And pneumatic tubes are no substitute for the internet.

 

[Hornbein]

It seems to me that no electronics, mechanical only is the idea behind the steampunk trend. There are steampunk conventions going on in this world. It's mostly about clothing style though, not building actual machines.

 

[Klystron]

Without going to far off topic of this thread, electricity (cyberpunk) and mechanical (steampunk) are not converses nor sole alternatives. Consider genetically engineered biological organisms (biopunk?). Much allegorical modern SF features talking pets, living houses grown from seeds, rocket and other-pods grown from essentially biological sources.

Allegorical because speculation stems from authors' experience, surroundings and history. Cyberpunk merges electronic computer technology with biological organisms (cyborgs). Steampunk reimagines 'Victorian' society technology such as steam railroads and tickertapes with modern sexuality and mores.

 

[256bits]

Without going to far off topic of this thread, electricity (cyberpunk) and mechanical (steampunk) are not converses nor sole alternatives. Consider genetically engineered biological organisms (biopunk?). Much allegorical modern SF features talking pets, living houses grown from seeds, rocket and other-pods grown from essentially biological sources.

Allegorical because speculation stems from authors' experience, surroundings and history. Cyberpunk merges electronic computer technology with biological organisms (cyborgs). Steampunk reimagines 'Victorian' society technology such as steam railroads and tickertapes with modern sexuality and mores.

There should be a Flintstone punk from the comic dinosaur tech.

 

[robphy]

Mechanical circuits: electronics without electricity - Steve Mould


https://upperstory.com/en/spintronics/
https://upperstory.com/en/spintronics/simulator/