Physics Men vs. Women in Physics Careers

[erin85]

The above posters have already listed numerous reasons why women have been held down socially, so I'm not going to repeat them... most are quite true. Given that women are less encouraged to go into physics as children, and physics classes are taught in a style that is non-optimal for many women, the result is fewer women total in physics.

So, it's not surprising that MOST very famous and successful physicists are men, because most physicists are indeed, men. There are certainly extremely accomplished and intelligent women in physics. You don't hear about them as often simply for statistics reasons... there aren't as many. It's not a lack of ability, it's a numbers game. In addition, physics has been a boys club, essentially since it was really discovered. Even in the last century, when women were finally allowed to study physics, their discoveries were often claimed by men.

For one, consider the discovery of the double stranded structure of DNA (biology, not physics, but the basic structure still holds). Rosalind Franklin was extremely instrumental in this discovery - her xray crystallography made it possible, and she worked out the structure herself. Watson & Crick, on the basis of Franklin's unpublished evidence, published the structure, and subsequently won a Nobel Prize for it. It was a women who was behind the discovery, but men who got the credit.

As another example, take EBR-I, at INL. It was the first nuclear reactor to generate power. The day it was successful, all the scientists in the building wrote their names on the wall to celebrate. They were all male, and would not allow the female cleaning staff present to also write their names on the wall. However, this was not a scientist vs cleaning staff decision, because the male member of the cleaning staff DID write his name on the wall...

So, it's clear that past discoveries by women could have been masked as discoveries by men, skewing our statistics on the number of really great male vs female physicists. I think the scenario described, in which females simply don't have the capacity to understand the intricacies of physics is completely bigoted... I think that poster just wanted to get a rise out of us girls on the board...

 

[_Eternity_]

Hey, this is a great topic. I am a woman myself see why most women "avoid" physics. I'm listing several reasons as to why this is the case (my opinion):

1. Social brainwashing. Have you watched TV lately? Any show portrays women as"desperate HOUSEWIVES" *cough*, so from early childhood, girls "dream" of meeting a perfect husband, who will sweep them off their feet.

2. Women are more caring and tend to go into "caring" careers such as K-12 teachers, nursing, customer service, human resources and decorating

3. Different ways of approaching problems. As mentioned before, men see the BIG picture, women focus on DETAIL. I think you need both to be an engineer and depending on the type of engineering.

I can't think of anymore reasons. I love philosophy and I run into the same problem when it comes to logic. Only old males like discussing these things, and I'm a young female?

 

[thewhills]

Science and Engineering in the media is terrible in general.
The Media give kids a good look into the world of business,but not into science or engineering or math,

 

[mal4mac]

I do not agree with this because you are comparing one country to the rest of the world, and when you do this it is easy to see that the rest of the world will almost always dominate. If you were to compare the number of great scientists in one country to the number of great scientists in another it would probably be a little more even.

In a recent thread I compared Fields medallists between USA, UK,and France. USA was WAY behind, per head of population.

 

[mal4mac]

It depends on what you mean by "better". I can't imagine what is more exciting than being at the forefront of modern physics - it's not about fame, money, or glory. It's just cool. For me there's nothing better than learning about the fundamentals of the universe - everything else fails.

Even if you are highly motivated to do fundamental physics, they aren't going to pay you to do that. Unless you are amongst the lucky few. Having a mindset that "everything else fails" is a recipe for personal disaster if (as is likely) you get kicked out of the "fundamental physics research" career path. Better find something else that *doesn't* fail. Fortunately, there *are* plenty of other things that don't fail, if you have a realistic attitude.

 

[Count Iblis]

I think that the reason why you have less women in physics in the top position in almost all of the world's countries is partially due to (hidden) discrimination and partially due to the fact that physics and math education in primary and secondary school is abominable (all over the world).

The fact that math and physics education is relevant because there is a difference in how girls and boys on average interact with the educational system. There are minor differences in what girls and boys find interesting. Also there are minor difference in how serous they learn in school. There is some evidence that girls tend to be more serious about studying, they finish their university studies a bit earlier on average than boys. They attend classes better and study more serious for exams.

This would seem to give girls an advantage above boys. But in case of physics you get the opposite effect. What happens is that those students who excell at university tend to be the people who at high school studied physics and math on their own. So, the question is, if you are doing well and you are way ahead, are you then going to the university library and study quantum mechanics and relativity on your own?

I think that more boys than girls tend to do that. Not because boys are inherently better than girls in math or physics, but because boys have slightly different preferences on what to do in their free time.


Another related thing is that you have more boys who decide to study physics than girls in the first place. If you stick to the high school curriculum you wouldn't have a clue what physics or math at university is all about, so looking into this in your free time while at high school is also an important factor here.

Then, while studying at univesity, it helps a lot not to stick to the curriculum and do more than is strictly necessary. More boys tend to do that than girls. In case of physics such an attitude is likely to give you a much bigger advantage compared to other subjects.


I can give an anecdotal examples about my own experience on how important studying physics/math at high school is. When I was 15, I mastered the theory of complex functions. I was very good at solving complicated contour integration problems. When I was at university in second year I followed a math course in this suject. Most of the students were math students, I was the only physics student of the course (physics students are required to follow a certain number of optional math courses).

The exam was quite easy for me. I made one minor mistake and scored 98%. Out of the about 30 students there was only one other student who passed the test, he scored 70%. Everyone else failed the test (i.e. they scored less than 60%, which in our system is a "fail").

Clearly being able to perform like that at university is a big help.
Some of my friends who were also doing well at university told me that they also studied on their own in high school. Then it was no surprise that almost all of these friends went on to do a Ph.D., while of the others only a few decied to do a Ph.D. The ratio boys/girls went up even further at this stage.


I think that in case of literature, you can see the opposite effect, but it isn't as big as in physics, because language education is not as bad as math education in high school. Girls read more novels in their free time than boys. Also, there are more girls who will learn foreign languages on their own in high school than boys. This then leads to mor girls deciding to study foreign languages/literature than boys and outperforming them on average.

 

[Count Iblis]

Even if you are highly motivated to do fundamental physics, they aren't going to pay you to do that. Unless you are amongst the lucky few. Having a mindset that "everything else fails" is a recipe for personal disaster if (as is likely) you get kicked out of the "fundamental physics research" career path. Better find something else that *doesn't* fail. Fortunately, there *are* plenty of other things that don't fail, if you have a realistic attitude.

Well, you must focus on achieving certain goals. If you want to go into fundamental physics, you better make sure you start to achieve good results on your research. The sooner you start the better. With this focus in mind there is nothing wrong with an "everything else fails" mentality as that may keep you on the right track.

 

[Moonbear]

There is some evidence that girls tend to be more serious about studying, they finish their university studies a bit earlier on average than boys. They attend classes better and study more serious for exams.

Can you provide references for this? I'm not doubting your claims, I've just never seen such studies and would love to see them for myself.

Another related thing is that you have more boys who decide to study physics than girls in the first place. If you stick to the high school curriculum you wouldn't have a clue what physics or math at university is all about, so looking into this in your free time while at high school is also an important factor here.

Interesting point. Though, why do you think there's a gender difference in how this free time is utilized?

Then, while studying at univesity, it helps a lot not to stick to the curriculum and do more than is strictly necessary. More boys tend to do that than girls. In case of physics such an attitude is likely to give you a much bigger advantage compared to other subjects.

I'm not sure this is true. You're suggesting that men rather than women would seek further information outside the curriculum? I don't agree. Can you back up your claim with any published studies that provide such evidence?

I can give an anecdotal examples about my own experience on how important studying physics/math at high school is. When I was 15, I mastered the theory of complex functions. I was very good at solving complicated contour integration problems. When I was at university in second year I followed a math course in this suject. Most of the students were math students, I was the only physics student of the course (physics students are required to follow a certain number of optional math courses).

The exam was quite easy for me. I made one minor mistake and scored 98%. Out of the about 30 students there was only one other student who passed the test, he scored 70%. Everyone else failed the test (i.e. they scored less than 60%, which in our system is a "fail").

Clearly being able to perform like that at university is a big help.
Some of my friends who were also doing well at university told me that they also studied on their own in high school. Then it was no surprise that almost all of these friends went on to do a Ph.D., while of the others only a few decied to do a Ph.D. The ratio boys/girls went up even further at this stage.

And when I was in college, it was one of my female classmates who would score far ahead of everyone else on exams. Anectdotal evidence only provides one example, and doesn't explain overall trends.

Girls read more novels in their free time than boys. Also, there are more girls who will learn foreign languages on their own in high school than boys. This then leads to mor girls deciding to study foreign languages/literature than boys and outperforming them on average.

Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this information from. Can you provide sources? Much to my chagrin, it's my boyfriend who has read far more novels and literature than I have...and his major in college was civil engineering. So, if you're basing it on anecdotal evidence alone, my anecdotal evidence speaks to the contrary. I'd prefer to see proper studies to support any claims.

 

[Tiger99]

I'm a woman in physics (sort of - maybe in mathematics).

I think it helps to have a lot of confidence in one's own abilities when dealing with the competitive atmosphere. In my experience, men seem to have a lot more confidence (or at least pretend that they do?). They say things like "I was really good at doing contour integrals in high school" or "I really understand this now", etc. Several times a man/boy has told he was just really good at physics and mathematics. Even the ones who have failed exams in mathematics and physics.

I've never met a girl who told me she was good at mathematics or physics, even though I've known girls who were child prodigies and got their degrees before most people finished school. Even these kinds of people rate their mathematical/physics abilities as just average or maybe slightly above average.

Then in the mathematics/physics community a myth prevails that you need to be brilliant to succeed. Only really really smart people can contribute dazzling insights into how the world works. I think perhaps there are a lot of men who would happily identify themselves as "brilliant" but very few women. So the women give up perhaps without any external barrier. They get into graduate school, they score a good postdoc, but even if they do, they don't think they're really smart enough to be a physicist, and eventually they leave of their own accord.

I generalized a lot to make this easy to say... Does it ring true with anyone though?

Also, it's a bit hard to judge someone else's ability, so if someone tells people they are not good, then perhaps others believe them? and maybe this is why people think women aren't as good as men at mathematics and physics? just a little bit at least?

 

[RufusDawes]

cause male brain is larger and more powerful.. female brain focus on picking beries.

Sad but true. Women prefer neat linear compartments. Not to say a smart woman can't do what she pleases and shouldn't be encouraged to. Silly argument b.c answer is so obvious..

 

[Count Iblis]

Moonbear, I tried to find that study about female students studying more seriously, but I could not find it on the internet. I read about that study in a local newspaper some years ago.

The other point I made about girls being less inclined to be involved in activities outside the curriculum is based on my personal experience, so it may not be true in general. But I do think that it is related to the first point about girls studying more seriously.

What I have noted lately is that due to changes in our educational system students, regardless of gender, are actually behaving more like high school students and won't explore anything beyond their curriculum.

So, if you give students some problem to solve for homework and there is a mathematical obstacle that requires the students to do a little more work beyond what they have learned in math class, the students will simply come back to me and say that they couldn't do it.

 

[Tiger99]

cause male brain is larger and more powerful.. female brain focus on picking beries.

Sad but true. Women prefer neat linear compartments. Not to say a smart woman can't do what she pleases and shouldn't be encouraged to. Silly argument b.c answer is so obvious..

I'm going to assume you just enjoy stirring people. No-one really thinks that anymore, right?

 

[physics girl phd]

Maybe some of it comes from being an engendered field and some unenlightened advising, teaching, and even hiring and work practices: Since no-one else out here is providing any references on this (many of these from Jill Marshall's AAPT 2006 talk: The Gender Gap in Physics: Explanations, Data, Analysis -- personally I've become sick of all the gender-bias in physics. So sick of it all I avoid gender-related PER research like Jill's because it depresses me.):

Maybe her education was not equal: * Kahle, Jane Butler and Marsha K. Lakes (1983) The myth of equality in science classrooms. Journal of Research in Science Teaching, 20: 131-140. (I have personally read on graduate selection committee letters that even though she did better on the GRE than a male applicant, and has more research experience (via publications) than that male counterpart that her adviser still writes that she "looks cute working in the lab" rather than about her research technique. )

She might even be turned down from a job or application because her CV has a female name (while I was a grad student this came out... in science or nature, but I can't find it and am busy today)

She might be given more grunt work and less opportunity: http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080423/full/452918a.html

While there might be "some" differences in spatial verbal skills it's not "significantly" different and it's not biologically evident:
*Hedges, L.V. & Nowell, A.(1995). Sex differences in mental test scores, variability, and numbers of high-scoring individuals, Science, 269, 41-45.
Cahill, L. (2005). His brain, her brain, Scientific American, 292, 40-47.

P.S. regarding "foreign" scientists... A lot of the Nobel Prizes in physics have been given to U.S. nationals... and many of those were born and raised and received their education here. www.nobelprize.org -- this of course assumes you are US like I am -- and I really think that's a centrist way of looking at things b/c there's a lot of national variation on this forum thank goodness!)

-- And did you know D. Jin at Boulder just made an ultra-cold fermi gas? That might be nobel-worthy in the future... oh yeah -- and the "D." is for "Debbie".

P.S. just ask my husband (a sociologist)... I'm certainly not neat, linear, and certainly NOT compartmentalized via my housekeeping tendencies. And according to him, the start to this topic and some responses therein are from ignorant sexist $%#@#$#%#'s.

 

[Moonbear]

Let's not forget the frustrating and still prevalent, "I have to support a wife and kids so need a higher salary" argument that still seems to be successful. I've never had as much success with the, "I don't have a husband to support me so need more money" approach.

I'm going to assume you just enjoy stirring people. No-one really thinks that anymore, right?

I hope so too. I'm going to take it as a joke, albeit a VERY BAD joke.

 

[sharanya]

i am a 17yr old girl and i ve been passionate about physics since i was 13 when the actual demarcation was made from the other sciences. it has to be the most beautiful science compared to everything else. i ve personally had no difficulty studyin physics and reading hawkings books even when i was in 9th grade. but i find men more interested in phy and more willing to discuss theories with me esp those concerning quantum physics and cosmology.

 

[Null_]

I must add that I am an 18 year old female, just about to graduate from high school. I plan to enter the field of chemical engineering in the fall. I feel that sadly, although my math teachers have been female, I have not been pushed in school. Now I don't think the guys were pushed any more than I was, but my teachers look at me strangely when I tell them that I am going into engineering. I was never encouraged to enter the field until I excelled in a college-level chemistry class (male teacher). This push has made a great difference, something to give encouragement that I may contribute to the knowledge base rather than just be a much-needed minority. I think most girls throughout high school and grade school are kept away from the math and science classes; I was always encouraged to enter english and history classes due to the fact that I did well on the tests, even though I did much better on the subjects I enjoy.

I have no female friends with whom I can discuss my readings; it is mainly my teacher and two male friends. Granted, I go to a fairly small school, but it is disheartening. I wish I would have been steered toward physics from a younger age, because now that I have found it I am in love. However, I must also be somewhat thankful that I have discovered my passion and am not going to be stuck analyzing Shakespeare and the Renaissance for the rest of my life (no offense..I enjoy learning about it but I see no point in devoting one's life to the study of human creations).

 

[Astronuc]

I must add that I am an 18 year old female, just about to graduate from high school. I plan to enter the field of chemical engineering in the fall. I feel that sadly, although my math teachers have been female, I have not been pushed in school. Now I don't think the guys were pushed any more than I was, but my teachers look at me strangely when I tell them that I am going into engineering. I was never encouraged to enter the field until I excelled in a college-level chemistry class (male teacher). This push has made a great difference, something to give encouragement that I may contribute to the knowledge base rather than just be a much-needed minority. I think most girls throughout high school and grade school are kept away from the math and science classes; I was always encouraged to enter english and history classes due to the fact that I did well on the tests, even though I did much better on the subjects I enjoy.

I have no female friends with whom I can discuss my readings; it is mainly my teacher and two male friends. Granted, I go to a fairly small school, but it is disheartening. I wish I would have been steered toward physics from a younger age, because now that I have found it I am in love. However, I must also be somewhat thankful that I have discovered my passion and am not going to be stuck analyzing Shakespeare and the Renaissance for the rest of my life (no offense..I enjoy learning about it but I see no point in devoting one's life to the study of human creations).

If engineering is your passion, go for it! I would recommend finding a mentor. Also, when attending university, look into the professional engineering society in your major. For chemical engineering, American Institute of Chemical Engineers, www.aiche.org[/url], and more specifically, the students section - [url]http://www.aiche.org/Students/[/URL]

We have summer interns, and this summer, a female student is working in our office.

My company has a female PhD Mech E who is one of the best in the industry. We had a female Mech E who had a law degree but had gone back to school to obtain a MS degree in Mech E. I have a female friend who is a Civil Engineer, and she just completed a law degree.
I work with many other female PhDs in the nuclear industry, at the national labs or who do research and teach at university. There a many possibilities.

 

[Null_]

If engineering is your passion, go for it! I would recommend finding a mentor. Also, when attending university, look into the professional engineering society in your major. For chemical engineering, American Institute of Chemical Engineers, www.aiche.org[/url], and more specifically, the students section - [url]http://www.aiche.org/Students/[/URL]

We have summer interns, and this summer, a female student is working in our office.

My company has a female PhD Mech E who is one of the best in the industry. We had a female Mech E who had a law degree but had gone back to school to obtain a MS degree in Mech E. I have a female friend who is a Civil Engineer, and she just completed a law degree.
I work with many other female PhDs in the nuclear industry, at the national labs or who do research and teach at university. There a many possibilities.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the words! I'm going to be in an honors program, which provides us a mentor. I'm also definitely going to look into the chemE society. There is also a female engineer club at my campus, which I'll most likely join. I really never thought much about being different than the guys, since most of my friends now are guys. I hope people don't make a deal about it..but I expect that it's getting better. After all, something like 20% of the chemEs are female, and there is a larger percent than that as professors. :)

 

[twofish-quant]

I generalized a lot to make this easy to say... Does it ring true with anyone though?

Absolutely. In some areas of physics there is a very, very strong *macho* atmosphere. I can do this integral and you can't so I'm *BETTER* than you. Oh YEAH! Well you are *STUPID* since I can do this integral better than you SO THERE. YOU ARE WEAK AND STUPID AND I RULE! HAHAHHA! You think you are smart, well *I* just published this paper, and won this award *SO THERE*

This is an environment which fit male gender roles.

However, one thing that has changed gender roles is the role of physics. In the 1960's, physicists got a lot of money to build bigger and better bombs and building bombs to make sure that you can fight the person across the ocean that is also trying to build bombs is a "male" role. If you look at what parts of physics are getting money today, people aren't interested in building bigger bombs to fight the Russians. What people are really, really scared of is *dying* or worse yet *dying horribly*.

So where the big money is is in the biological sciences. Biophysics and NIH is getting huge amounts of money. This helps women a lot because it fits into the female stereotype of the "caring nurturer." This has dramatically shifted the balance of power in research universities.

 

[jamesmo]

The premise that women are better at cooking and sewing is patently false. I would like to point out, I am a great chef and can sew. Until you have tried my salmon rissoto, you are in no position to say women can cook better than men. I also made my wife a lovely skirt for her birthday. I only got my Ph.D. in physics to sound cool at parties.

 

[Count Iblis]

Jamesmo, we'll see you http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006t1k5" then!

 

[Ki Man]

The gender disparity is a huge issue - who else will lonely physicists date? Bio majors?

But in all seriousness, yes the neurology research shows men are better at spatial reasoning, which may lend itself to the sciences better than a woman's brain does. So, if you were to have completely equal social conditions, women by that reasoning should be in slightly less numbers than men. This effect (if that postulated cause really does have any effect to begin with) could be exacerbating the fact that the gender gap in science education is only beginning to close. After all, the gap in all education, science or otherwise, wasn't closed too long ago.

 

[Jerbearrrrrr]

Maybe women just don't (or are less inclined to) care about photons and neutrinos.

I think in general, men are more likely to be interested in being rigorous. In my own experience even in the bar, men are more like to "argue" just for the sake of finding the answer to a random question.

Jo Brand summarises amusingly (but insightfully):
I said to my husband the other week, "Can you Hoover the front room while I'm at the shops," right? And I came back . . . All the furniture was out in the garden. He's on his hands and knees with the Hoover, using an attachment I'd never even seen before. And it just leads me to think that men are probably actually much better at housework than women.

I can do this integral and you can't so I'm *BETTER* than you.

That behaviour isn't exclusive to men though. Well..maybe in terms of integration it is.

 

[ViewsofMars]

From the American Physical Society - Women in Physics

APS, through the Committee on the Status of Women in Physics (CSWP), is committed to encouraging the recruitment, retention, and career development of women physicists at all levels.
[Please read on . . . ]
http://www.aps.org/programs/women/index.cfm

 

[lisab]

I just finished a QM course that's part of a Master's program in physics. Some 1/3 of the class were women! And that's in a graduate class!

But something twofish said really rang true, at least in my undergrad classes. It was very, very competitive environment, very macho, like a sport. Not what I would call a friendly atmosphere. I can easily see how a young person, male or female, could be turned off by that.

 

[Jerbearrrrrr]

It's completely the opposite here! Sharing notes, revising together, giving each other hints (not the full solution though of course)...I think it's more or less a good environment. People want to be at the top of course, so they work hard to keep up with their peers.
This is despite the fact that grading is done almost entirely by percentiles (the top x% get an X).

Well I do maths, not physics, but the mentality is somewhat similar.
Maybe I'm lucky then.

 

[ViewsofMars]

But something twofish said really rang true, at least in my undergrad classes. It was very, very competitive environment, very macho, like a sport. Not what I would call a friendly atmosphere. I can easily see how a young person, male or female, could be turned off by that.

Hi lisab More than likely what will make a difference in the future is the fact that K-12 are now being introduced to physics: " Physics is the scientific study of the basic principles of the universe, including matter, energy, motion and force, and their interactions. Major topics include classical mechanics, thermodynamics, light and optics, electromagnetism and relativity." You can see by exploring the following website what is now being offered to teachers of K-12. Some of the kids (boys and girls) are enjoying the classes. Of course where I'm from, adults don't draw lines between gender. Equal opportunity in K-12.lol!. I'll share a secret with you, the little girls in my neck of the woods are very astute and have good manners and so do the young boys.
http://teachengineering.org/view_su...on/wpi_/subject_areas/wpi_physics/physics.xml

As a woman with a long history of employment, there will always be days of enjoyment and stress. Hopefully, good stress. Healthy minded people in general do like to climb the ladder of success and manage quite successfully to remain good friends with co-workers. Starting a project and finishing it is a great feeling no matter what your profession might be! A professional always attempts to be friendly.

 

[Count Iblis]

I agree with what Jerbearrrrrr and Ki Man are saying about differences between men and women. But I also think these sorts of differences are only relevant at all because of a bad physics and math educational system in high school and primary school.

What happens is that many students, boys and girls, get a misleading picture of physics and math and will decide not to study such boring topics at university. The few students who do decide to study such topics will typically be those students who have pursued their own interest in these topics by reading books etc. Typically there will be more boys than girls who do that in case of math and physics.

Similarly, if we were to stop all English lessons in schools beyond lessons aimed at teaching the alphabet, spelling and very basic grammar then, over time, almost everyone would be practically analphabets. The small fraction who are good at reading and writing would be dominated by women. This would then lead to women dominating most academic topics, because reading and writing are such essential skills and because without being able to read well, you would't even know what interesting topics there are to learn about.

 

[ViewsofMars]

But in all seriousness, yes the neurology research shows men are better at spatial reasoning, which may lend itself to the sciences better than a woman's brain does.

I'd appreciate reviewing the research. Please provide me the article(s) from a peer-reviewed journel that substantiates your claim.

 

[jamesmo]

I'd appreciate reviewing the research. Please provide me the article(s) from a peer-reviewed journel that substantiates your claim.

I can't believe you missed the article. Though some differences were present early, those resolved at later timepoints. To remind you of the article:

R. U. Kidding, et.al., "Spatial reasoning of the male mind: Do men space out during the spring semister more than women?", Am. Jour. of Mandom, June, 2003 p 523-523.5.

Abstract: We observed 50 subjects (two cohorts: 25 male, 25 female) all in seniors at a 4 year college for behaviors that could be traced to the known condition of "graduation-pattern-spaciness". These behaviors include, staring out windows, sipping beers with friends, and spending excessive amount of time with other participates in the study, not of their study cohort. We coorrelated these with outdoor temperature, time to graduation, and major.

CONCLUSION: The males in the study did demonstrate a 25% higher "spaciness" in the earlier time groups (March and April, p< 0.05), however both cohorts (male and female) achieved a similar level of spaciness in May (p=0.3). The correlation in both cohorts with outdoor temperature was high (r=0.95). Physicists tended to be more vulnerable to the effects of graduation-pattern-spaciness.