- #31
Lacy33
- 242
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How Small?
nightcleaner said:
Metaphysics and something from nothing
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The discussion revolves around the concept of nothingness as a potential physical force, exploring its implications and philosophical underpinnings. Participants reference Zero Point Energy, noting attempts to harness it as an endless energy source, though skepticism remains regarding its feasibility without violating thermodynamic laws. The conversation touches on the paradox of deriving something from nothing, highlighting the limitations of classical logic and the complexities of quantum mechanics. A Chinese poem is cited to illustrate the utility of emptiness in creating tools, prompting reflections on the nature of existence and perception. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of language in framing these abstract concepts and the need for a collective understanding to explore deeper truths. Participants express a desire to bridge philosophical and scientific discourse, acknowledging the challenges of communicating complex ideas while recognizing the potential for enlightenment through shared exploration. The discussion ultimately suggests that while the topic may seem nonsensical, it opens avenues for meaningful inquiry into the nature of reality and consciousness.
- #32
nightcleaner
Hi S
I was half joking about hurricanes. I live far north and we have been having some locally severe weather, but the roof is no joke. I worked on it some today but will have to complete the job as permitted.
I think I know what you mean by infinitely small. That would be a small length divided an infinite number of times, right? There is a hot argument going on about something called zero point energy, and a lot of work has been invested in string theory which seems to depend on this very small point. The question has to do with what, exactly, is emptyness, or nothingness, or perfect vacuum. I have some thoughts on it but right now I have to go to work. I'll try to come back to this as soon as I get time.
Don't worry about being challenged. we are all little creatures in a very big universe, and it is those who don't know they are challenged who deserve our pity.
I admire your bravery in trying to think about these difficult things. Keep writing!
nc
I was half joking about hurricanes. I live far north and we have been having some locally severe weather, but the roof is no joke. I worked on it some today but will have to complete the job as permitted.
I think I know what you mean by infinitely small. That would be a small length divided an infinite number of times, right? There is a hot argument going on about something called zero point energy, and a lot of work has been invested in string theory which seems to depend on this very small point. The question has to do with what, exactly, is emptyness, or nothingness, or perfect vacuum. I have some thoughts on it but right now I have to go to work. I'll try to come back to this as soon as I get time.
Don't worry about being challenged. we are all little creatures in a very big universe, and it is those who don't know they are challenged who deserve our pity.
I admire your bravery in trying to think about these difficult things. Keep writing!
nc
- #33
magus niche
- 82
- 0
glimpse into the eternal.
what if, as crazy as may seem to the logical mind, space and time were infinite in the literal sense of the word? i mean, these calculated figures and small points in space could be limits to our thought processes. we think that atoms and the inherent small bits that energise them etc are fundamental, but what if our current technology and conscioussness is simply getting to a dead end: that there is no end. no beginning and no end just energy levels and tranferalls.
i know this does not seem practical, but maybe we should slow down and examine what we can examine, rather than that which we simply cannot.
just a thought, this string is fascinating.
what if, as crazy as may seem to the logical mind, space and time were infinite in the literal sense of the word? i mean, these calculated figures and small points in space could be limits to our thought processes. we think that atoms and the inherent small bits that energise them etc are fundamental, but what if our current technology and conscioussness is simply getting to a dead end: that there is no end. no beginning and no end just energy levels and tranferalls.
i know this does not seem practical, but maybe we should slow down and examine what we can examine, rather than that which we simply cannot.
just a thought, this string is fascinating.
- #34
Lacy33
- 242
- 1
Strings and...
YA! Thank you NC and Magus,
The strings are fascinating enough to keep some to the most profound thinkers busy, busy, but eventually we will need to discover, collectively, understand and agree upon the way that nature supports this Energy that is animating the universe. NOBODY wants to call it philosophy, metaphysics or worse, religion I realize from my years of experience with these researchers. But as I watch these incredible personalities around me I am beginning to think that GENIUS is what we shout back as we are falling off the cliff. They are the profundity we glimpse as we let go of all that seems logical and take that chance.
THEN we spend years working out the detail and suffering peer review.
Signed,
Walking around with the rope or (sting) in my hand. Ready to take the chance.
After all we have NOTHING to loose and NOTHING to gain!
Falling...still don't see NOTHING...n-o-t...t-o...w-e-l-l...
S
magus niche said:what if, as crazy as may seem to the logical mind, space and time were infinite in the literal sense of the word? i mean, these calculated figures and small points in space could be limits to our thought processes. we think that atoms and the inherent small bits that energise them etc are fundamental, but what if our current technology and conscioussness is simply getting to a dead end: that there is no end. no beginning and no end just energy levels and tranferalls.
i know this does not seem practical, but maybe we should slow down and examine what we can examine, rather than that which we simply cannot.
just a thought, this string is fascinating.
YA! Thank you NC and Magus,
The strings are fascinating enough to keep some to the most profound thinkers busy, busy, but eventually we will need to discover, collectively, understand and agree upon the way that nature supports this Energy that is animating the universe. NOBODY wants to call it philosophy, metaphysics or worse, religion I realize from my years of experience with these researchers. But as I watch these incredible personalities around me I am beginning to think that GENIUS is what we shout back as we are falling off the cliff. They are the profundity we glimpse as we let go of all that seems logical and take that chance.
THEN we spend years working out the detail and suffering peer review.
Signed,
Walking around with the rope or (sting) in my hand. Ready to take the chance.
After all we have NOTHING to loose and NOTHING to gain!
Falling...still don't see NOTHING...n-o-t...t-o...w-e-l-l...
S
- #35
RingoKid
- 192
- 0
nightcleaner said:
those 3 things are the way, the truth and the life that leads to the creator, though not in the order you stated but nevertheless...
accept NOTHING as fact
question everything
determine your own truth
define your own reality
be your own messiah...
...I AM are you ?
- #36
Lacy33
- 242
- 1
Here Goes Nothingness
Hi there Ringokid,
HERE GOES NOTHINGNESS...!
How interesting you should bring up messiah. This is a beautiluf way of saying that we are all united in bringing in future understandings of peace and surrender to ""I AM", that I AM" Ein Sof, the (no end) (infinite light) before creation.
Question everything is the way to navigate the maze of visible darkness that hides the unifying truths from us. Not that we are not suppose to ultimately see and understand them, we are, I think, but as we collectively begin to use the physical knowledge we have to expose the non-physical underpinnings, we may begin to take the first steps to uniting the heart of the human family thus alimenting the lower vibration of anger, and violence, the color Red, and eventually function at the higher frequencies. This is how I understand the concept of the messiah to be an indication of which way the human family should be striving. Many traditions have placed an actual messiah on Earth and there are indictions that we may even have one on Earth in every generation. Still the same messiah different incarnations to fit the time and gently guide us a little closer to loving kindness. Perhaps one day we will, as a human family agree on an understanding that will allow us to hold on to this special person or perhaps we are a messianic generation to usher in these understanding that will aliminate and ahinalite the darkness that keeps us from experiencing nature in it's full excellence.
Perhaps there is NO G-d, which I think I understand G-d to mean when indicating where to look for him. But that is getting a little far ahead of ourselves...and way ahead of me in particular!
I believe messiah comes from the hebrew word Moshiach from which one can take the name Moshe or Moses, a deliverer, Messiah also is found to mean "anointed above all his fellows". This could mean a generation or a single person or a generation that will usher in a single person. I tend to accept all of the above.
NOTHINGNESS is recorded in the Talmud in connection with Moses (Moshe), one of the first deliverers in this way.
With out going into the particulars of the Talmud, it essentially states in tractate Berakoth 7a that G-d says to Moses, look at the back of your head and you will see my back.
So with that I ask all of us to look at the back of our heads and say what we can see. (No mirrors).
What we can see is NOTHING.
That's WHERE it is.
Now, I ask all of us is it possible to map this NOTHINGNESS, since we know where it is, to leave off the religion and philosophy, that which makes scientific researchers break out in hives and take the next step to revealing the supporting lights or dimensions of this physical universe?
Did not want to go here but what's done is done!
I want to be buried in Long Island for those of you who would want to do that to me.
And no I do not know who or what G-d is.
But I am beginning to feel the love. And again whatever that is.
Unhumbly...cause I will never reach humility...
S
RingoKid said:
Hi there Ringokid,
HERE GOES NOTHINGNESS...!
How interesting you should bring up messiah. This is a beautiluf way of saying that we are all united in bringing in future understandings of peace and surrender to ""I AM", that I AM" Ein Sof, the (no end) (infinite light) before creation.
Question everything is the way to navigate the maze of visible darkness that hides the unifying truths from us. Not that we are not suppose to ultimately see and understand them, we are, I think, but as we collectively begin to use the physical knowledge we have to expose the non-physical underpinnings, we may begin to take the first steps to uniting the heart of the human family thus alimenting the lower vibration of anger, and violence, the color Red, and eventually function at the higher frequencies. This is how I understand the concept of the messiah to be an indication of which way the human family should be striving. Many traditions have placed an actual messiah on Earth and there are indictions that we may even have one on Earth in every generation. Still the same messiah different incarnations to fit the time and gently guide us a little closer to loving kindness. Perhaps one day we will, as a human family agree on an understanding that will allow us to hold on to this special person or perhaps we are a messianic generation to usher in these understanding that will aliminate and ahinalite the darkness that keeps us from experiencing nature in it's full excellence.
Perhaps there is NO G-d, which I think I understand G-d to mean when indicating where to look for him. But that is getting a little far ahead of ourselves...and way ahead of me in particular!
I believe messiah comes from the hebrew word Moshiach from which one can take the name Moshe or Moses, a deliverer, Messiah also is found to mean "anointed above all his fellows". This could mean a generation or a single person or a generation that will usher in a single person. I tend to accept all of the above.
NOTHINGNESS is recorded in the Talmud in connection with Moses (Moshe), one of the first deliverers in this way.
With out going into the particulars of the Talmud, it essentially states in tractate Berakoth 7a that G-d says to Moses, look at the back of your head and you will see my back.
So with that I ask all of us to look at the back of our heads and say what we can see. (No mirrors).
What we can see is NOTHING.
That's WHERE it is.
Now, I ask all of us is it possible to map this NOTHINGNESS, since we know where it is, to leave off the religion and philosophy, that which makes scientific researchers break out in hives and take the next step to revealing the supporting lights or dimensions of this physical universe?
Did not want to go here but what's done is done!
I want to be buried in Long Island for those of you who would want to do that to me.
And no I do not know who or what G-d is.
But I am beginning to feel the love. And again whatever that is.
Unhumbly...cause I will never reach humility...
S
- #37
nightcleaner
If we are going to make progress understanding what nothing is, perhaps we need to start with understanding what things are. The standard model of QM gives us many clues, based on observation and measurement, and string theory gives us a model that unifies the particles in QM. So QM gives us information about how matter-energy behaves, and ST gives us an idea about why they behave that way. But we still have not approached an understanding of what, exactly, a string is.
What is vibrating? And what does it look like when it is not vibrating?
Any thoughts?
nc
What is vibrating? And what does it look like when it is not vibrating?
Any thoughts?
nc
- #38
RingoKid
- 192
- 0
I think a "string" is a unit/particle of consciousness embedded in the mind of God and I reckon it looks like a figure 8 when it's not vibrating which coincidentally (or not) is the infinity sign...
- #39
Lacy33
- 242
- 1
A Node?
That is very interesting in that it would answer a question of where the information comes from that feeds into the physical superstring ideas.
How would the string of consciousness connect to the physical string? And what means you by referring to the mind of G-d, hence embedded therein.
Finally how brings you to conclude that the string somehow Twists? around to look like a figure 8? What happens at the intersection formed by the figure 8? An interface? A portal? A knot? A NODE? That's it A NODE! What happened to you? Someone hit you in the head with the Nobel Prize?
YO HO
S
Hi RingoKid,RingoKid said:
That is very interesting in that it would answer a question of where the information comes from that feeds into the physical superstring ideas.
How would the string of consciousness connect to the physical string? And what means you by referring to the mind of G-d, hence embedded therein.
Finally how brings you to conclude that the string somehow Twists? around to look like a figure 8? What happens at the intersection formed by the figure 8? An interface? A portal? A knot? A NODE? That's it A NODE! What happened to you? Someone hit you in the head with the Nobel Prize?
YO HO
S
- #40
RingoKid
- 192
- 0
Hey Shoshana...don't mind me I'm just extreme speculating hoping for feedback
So anyway, I reckon from a figure 8 the cross over point would be the dimension of time which is the constant for strings as it determines the rate of vibration for without time there is no movement anywhere. We never see it as a figure 8 cos it is always vibrating and you can't stop time. If you broke a figure 8 up you can get sections that are closed, open, straight, closed with tails, even x shaped depending on which dimensions the string vibrates through or across but the minimum would have to be 2.
The real string and the conscious string are the same. We, it, everything is all embedded in the mysterious M-braned 11th dimension that essentially is the mind of god we could call it nothing with an awareness of itself but God gives it a sense of purpose as opposed to seemingly random fluctuations in a field of pure energy
Imagine the breeze blowing over a field of wheat. The wheat moves, we can't see the wind or predict it's behaviour but we register the effect of it on the field which incidentally is embedded in the ground.
gee i hope that makes sense. It would help if I was a magic ride and you could buy tickets to inside my head
...I and I is one
So anyway, I reckon from a figure 8 the cross over point would be the dimension of time which is the constant for strings as it determines the rate of vibration for without time there is no movement anywhere. We never see it as a figure 8 cos it is always vibrating and you can't stop time. If you broke a figure 8 up you can get sections that are closed, open, straight, closed with tails, even x shaped depending on which dimensions the string vibrates through or across but the minimum would have to be 2.
The real string and the conscious string are the same. We, it, everything is all embedded in the mysterious M-braned 11th dimension that essentially is the mind of god we could call it nothing with an awareness of itself but God gives it a sense of purpose as opposed to seemingly random fluctuations in a field of pure energy
Imagine the breeze blowing over a field of wheat. The wheat moves, we can't see the wind or predict it's behaviour but we register the effect of it on the field which incidentally is embedded in the ground.
gee i hope that makes sense. It would help if I was a magic ride and you could buy tickets to inside my head
...I and I is one
- #41
Lacy33
- 242
- 1
Hi back RingoKido,RingoKid said:
Are you suggesting intertwined sine waves that puts these nodes at regular intervals? Is that node a point of absolute time? The essence of time as it is on the beat. Simply asking: Which dimension can we find a portal to back into the higher dimensions. ( I think this last comment will attract a full blown assault on my unseasoned reasoning) But there you have it.
Signed,
Hopelessly Relentless
- #42
RingoKid
- 192
- 0
uh yeah I think so ?
If at each point in 4d spacetime there are portals that enter into new dimensions and all connected to at least 5 others...
...as to which one, probably door number 11 but maybe to get there you'd have to try them all and all combinations there of. I reckon you'll only ever try the same combination once before they recombine to become a different "key" as it were. Only one special combo will unlock...
...the "gateway to dimension 11".
sounds like a b grade sci fi...eh ? but in short i don't know yet am having much fun thinking about it.
It'd kinda be like a playstation move on a fighting game where certain combos of buttons and directions give you a boss move that kicks serious ass
...hyaaaaah
If at each point in 4d spacetime there are portals that enter into new dimensions and all connected to at least 5 others...
...as to which one, probably door number 11 but maybe to get there you'd have to try them all and all combinations there of. I reckon you'll only ever try the same combination once before they recombine to become a different "key" as it were. Only one special combo will unlock...
...the "gateway to dimension 11".
sounds like a b grade sci fi...eh ? but in short i don't know yet am having much fun thinking about it.
It'd kinda be like a playstation move on a fighting game where certain combos of buttons and directions give you a boss move that kicks serious ass
...hyaaaaah
- #43
Lacy33
- 242
- 1
And a metaphysical precept
I and I is one...do you mean to say You and You are one? Or that 1 and 1 are 1, which in both cases you would be correct in the metaphysical/spiritual sense. Right?
You and you would be one in BOTH the physical and non-physical sense but one and one in the spiritual sense would be one also because in the upper realm, CLOSENESS is is SAMENESS, hence cow and cow =1, 6 and 6 =1.
To conclude, if a person wants to become ONE with the higher realms they divest themselves of the ego attempting to get as close to nothingness as possible.
Nothing with Nothing = Nothing
Across the board.
S
Hi again Ringokid,RingoKid said:
I and I is one...do you mean to say You and You are one? Or that 1 and 1 are 1, which in both cases you would be correct in the metaphysical/spiritual sense. Right?
You and you would be one in BOTH the physical and non-physical sense but one and one in the spiritual sense would be one also because in the upper realm, CLOSENESS is is SAMENESS, hence cow and cow =1, 6 and 6 =1.
To conclude, if a person wants to become ONE with the higher realms they divest themselves of the ego attempting to get as close to nothingness as possible.
Nothing with Nothing = Nothing
Across the board.
S
- #44
Lacy33
- 242
- 1
I'm having fun too! But as children play they unlock secrets that the adults are to conditioned to see.RingoKid said:
I am convinced that the dimensions DO go through a continual realignment. Not sure this means that different combinations are needed to unlock the mechanisms because nature always keeps one step ahead of our investigation. By understanding the unfolding process, we can continue to predict some small amount of the revealed outcome.
I believe most of nature will remain covered simply because an abrupt revelation would overwhelm us and we would not survive. Perhaps because we will experience a kind of joy that our current state of awareness is not accustom to such light or truths.
Light, Light... turn down the light!
One could get a bad sunburn.
S
- #45
magus niche
- 82
- 0
nonsense+experience=subjective insight
brain exercise and will for existential play,
there is there is not, there could be a way,
imagination is here or was just then,
but who's to say that nothing is real?
certainly anyone in my mind, as anyone in my mind is real, or unreal if logic is depended upon, oh what a thought, or a crystallisation!
as a mind collects the strings, the sense is made more believable,
not to say correct, but then truth to ones self is a start, no?
dimensions collide as eyes meet in the street,
(not one to trust the first glance, but always open to novelty.)
feelings towards or back are crucial too and crucial can't be proven,
but here and now, although never static, starts to remind me of a pen,
and the digital keys take over in their dash for balance, hurting the brain and its friends underneath, working in unison, without them knowing it (?),
any one else for that matter, which physically do not exist but of course still exist somewhere else, could probably tell one the same thing in a different way,
a way that is an interest of mine, maybe it is energy. at least this word will do, as it demonstrates time/matter in flux, many ugly ducks but wise they are may join and may get white and higher like that which grows green but is not eaten by cows!
ha ha...ridiculous {i say out loud, wondering whether or not to send this very post}
brain exercise and will for existential play,
there is there is not, there could be a way,
imagination is here or was just then,
but who's to say that nothing is real?
certainly anyone in my mind, as anyone in my mind is real, or unreal if logic is depended upon, oh what a thought, or a crystallisation!
as a mind collects the strings, the sense is made more believable,
not to say correct, but then truth to ones self is a start, no?
dimensions collide as eyes meet in the street,
(not one to trust the first glance, but always open to novelty.)
feelings towards or back are crucial too and crucial can't be proven,
but here and now, although never static, starts to remind me of a pen,
and the digital keys take over in their dash for balance, hurting the brain and its friends underneath, working in unison, without them knowing it (?),
any one else for that matter, which physically do not exist but of course still exist somewhere else, could probably tell one the same thing in a different way,
a way that is an interest of mine, maybe it is energy. at least this word will do, as it demonstrates time/matter in flux, many ugly ducks but wise they are may join and may get white and higher like that which grows green but is not eaten by cows!
ha ha...ridiculous {i say out loud, wondering whether or not to send this very post}
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- #46
Lacy33
- 242
- 1
A little chiken soup maybe? And some rest. Hope you feel better.magus niche said:brain exercise and will for existential play,
there is there is not, there could be a way,
imagination is here or was just then,
but who's to say that nothing is real?
certainly anyone in my mind, as anyone in my mind is real, or unreal if logic is depended upon, oh what a thought, or a crystallisation!
as a mind collects the strings, the sense is made more believable,
not to say correct, but then truth to ones self is a start, no?
dimensions collide as eyes meet in the street,
(not one to trust the first glance, but always open to novelty.)
feelings towards or back are crucial too and crucial can't be proven,
but here and now, although never static, starts to remind me of a pen,
and the digital keys take over in their dash for balance, hurting the brain and its friends underneath, working in unison, without them knowing it (?),
any one else for that matter, which physically do not exist but of course still exist somewhere else, could probably tell one the same thing in a different way,
a way that is an interest of mine, maybe it is energy. at least this word will do, as it demonstrates time/matter in flux, many ugly ducks but wise they are may join and may get white and higher like that which grows green but is not eaten by cows!
ha ha...ridiculous {i say out loud, wondering whether or not to send this very post}
- #47
magus niche
- 82
- 0
yes good advice, the chaos within ones own mind aint always pretty. 
re: ringo my mind ride/virtual reality game would be of a horriffic nature complemented (hopefully!) by a sublime clarity later on...an up and down rollercoaster with non-violent balance combined with love of all being the ultimate goal?
whisper whisper winds move an essence natural but beyond our comprehension. time to meditate. :zzz:
re: ringo my mind ride/virtual reality game would be of a horriffic nature complemented (hopefully!) by a sublime clarity later on...an up and down rollercoaster with non-violent balance combined with love of all being the ultimate goal?
whisper whisper winds move an essence natural but beyond our comprehension. time to meditate. :zzz:
- #48
magus niche
- 82
- 0
hello people, there are some things that should be left alone for time to sort out, i can be one of those things.
with the questions of universality and unified truths, especially concerning nothingness, i have been contemplating thoroughly. to me, though i am constantly updating my own philosophy, at this point, i reckon there may not be any 'universal truths' (outside what is directly observable), UNLESS, we construct them. many people will obviously find issues with this, and that is the point of debate.
so, do we, should we, could we, construct or attempt to construct universalities? hmmm...am i avoiding responsibility? i mean, i could rattle on for ages with scribbles of thoughts etc. like the poem i posted earlier but that seems to deaden the room somewhat!
so by being more intelligable (not that this is a necessity), i am attempting here to reconstruct the debate about whether the persuit of knowledge of the unknowable/nothingness should have a unified direction, or whether it should continue as it is in a chaotic system where no rules apply.
can rules be placed on something so personal such as mind/soul/identity? all of which i would include in my curriculum of the unknowable.
with the questions of universality and unified truths, especially concerning nothingness, i have been contemplating thoroughly. to me, though i am constantly updating my own philosophy, at this point, i reckon there may not be any 'universal truths' (outside what is directly observable), UNLESS, we construct them. many people will obviously find issues with this, and that is the point of debate.
so, do we, should we, could we, construct or attempt to construct universalities? hmmm...am i avoiding responsibility? i mean, i could rattle on for ages with scribbles of thoughts etc. like the poem i posted earlier but that seems to deaden the room somewhat!
so by being more intelligable (not that this is a necessity), i am attempting here to reconstruct the debate about whether the persuit of knowledge of the unknowable/nothingness should have a unified direction, or whether it should continue as it is in a chaotic system where no rules apply.
can rules be placed on something so personal such as mind/soul/identity? all of which i would include in my curriculum of the unknowable.
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