Midpoint and Trapezoidal Rule (EASY)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of numerical integration methods, specifically the midpoint and trapezoidal rules, as well as Simpson's rule. Participants are analyzing results from a sample test that includes numerical outputs for different panel counts and are seeking assistance with understanding the implications of these results regarding concavity and function evaluations.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents data from applying the midpoint and trapezoidal rules on 2, 4, and 8 panels and questions whether the results support the claim that the integrand is concave down.
  • Another participant calculates Simpson's rule using the provided midpoint and trapezoidal values, suggesting a formula involving these results.
  • There is a request for clarification on the minimum number of function evaluations needed for Simpson's rule based on the given data.
  • Some participants express frustration over the lack of detailed work shown in the initial post, emphasizing the need for more context to provide effective help.
  • A participant provides a detailed explanation of the trapezoidal rule, including its mathematical formulation, in response to requests for clarification.
  • Another participant suggests that visualizing concave up and concave down cases could aid in understanding the application of the midpoint and trapezoidal rules.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of the numerical results regarding concavity. There is also disagreement on the sufficiency of the information provided to answer the questions posed, with some participants requesting more detailed background and others feeling that the data alone should suffice.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the discussion lacks sufficient mathematical detail for certain steps, particularly regarding the calculations for Simpson's rule and the implications of the midpoint and trapezoidal results.

medinaj2160
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I am solving a sample test for my test on monday, this is the question:

Table(1) have results from applying the midpoint and trapezoidal rule on 2, 4 and 8 panels

npanels...midpoint...trapezoid
2...2.19998820...2.48452890
4...2.26805993...2.33225855
8...2.28422520...2.30015924

1) do these number support the claim that integrand is concave down? Why?

2) Calculate the value of Simpson's rule using 8 panels.

3) what is the minimum number of function evaluations needed to calculate Simpson's rule from scratch on 8 panels?

************************

# 2 is easy: is 2/3(midpoint)+1/3(trappezoid)

Please help me with the other ones.

Thanks
 
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medinaj2160 said:
I am solving a sample test for my test on monday, this is the question:

Table(1) have results from applying the midpoint and trapezoidal rule on 2, 4 and 8 panels

npanels...midpoint...trapezoid
2...2.19998820...2.48452890
4...2.26805993...2.33225855
8...2.28422520...2.30015924

1) do these number support the claim that integrand is concave down? Why?

2) Calculate the value of Simpson's rule using 8 panels.

3) what is the minimum number of function evaluations needed to calculate Simpson's rule from scratch on 8 panels?

************************

# 2 is easy: is 2/3(midpoint)+1/3(trappezoid)

Please help me with the other ones.

Thanks

Please show us more of your work, per the PF Rules for schoolwork.
 
berkeman said:
Please show us more of your work, per the PF Rules for schoolwork.

there is nothing else to show
 
medinaj2160 said:
there is nothing else to show

Have you actually read the PF rules?
 
berkeman said:
Have you actually read the PF rules?

I have, but I don't understand your question. There is nothing else to show, there is no math involve on the other two steps. You or someone that knows what they are doing, should be able to answer question 1 and 3 by looking at the data.

You want more work

2) 2/3(2.28422520)+1/3(2.30015924)=2.28954

Happy?

Thanks, I just need some guidance or someone that can answer this simple question.
 
medinaj2160 said:
I have, but I don't understand your question. There is nothing else to show, there is no math involve on the other two steps. You or someone that knows what they are doing, should be able to answer question 1 and 3 by looking at the data.

You want more work

2) 2/3(2.28422520)+1/3(2.30015924)=2.28954

Happy?

Thanks, I just need some guidance or someone that can answer this simple question.

No, sorry. That doesn't help me. Part of the problem is that I don't understand what you are asking. If you could provide more details and background information, that would be a bit help. What is the "trapezoidal rule" that you are referring to? how does it apply to the numbers that you posted?

I'm not trying to be a pain here, but honestly, it would help if you posted a lot more background info, and lead us more into helping us provide hints to what you don't understand.
 
well, that how the question is written on the sample test.

Trapezoidal rule
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is about the quadrature rule for approximating integrals. For the Explicit trapezoidal rule for solving initial value problems, see Heun's method.
The function f(x) (in blue) is approximated by a linear function (in red).
Illustration of the composite trapezoidal rule (with a non-uniform grid)
Illustration of the composite trapezoidal rule (with a uniform grid)

In mathematics, the trapezium rule (also known as the trapezoid rule, or the trapezoidal rule in American English) is an approximate technique for calculating the definite integral

\int_{a}^{b} f(x)\,dx.

The trapezoidal rule works by approximating the region under the graph of the function f(x) as a trapezoid and calculating its area. It follows that

\int_{a}^{b} f(x)\, dx \approx (b-a)\frac{f(a) + f(b)}{2}.

To calculate this integral more accurately, one first splits the interval of integration [a,b] into n smaller subintervals, and then applies the trapezoidal rule on each of them. One obtains the composite trapezoidal rule:

\int_a^b f(x)\,dx \approx \frac{b-a}{n} \left[ {f(a) + f(b) \over 2} + \sum_{k=1}^{n-1} f \left( a+k \frac{b-a}{n} \right) \right].

This can alternatively be written as:

\int_a^b f(x)\,dx \approx \frac{b-a}{2n} \left(f(x_0) + 2f(x_1) + 2f(x_2)+\cdots+2f(x_{n-1}) + f(x_n) \right)

where

x_k=a+k \frac{b-a}{n},\text{ for }k=0, 1, \dots, n

(one can not use a non-uniform grid, as the composite trapezoidal rule assumes equally sized segments).

midpoint
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKtSR0_xf5g"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Your extract from wikipedia is too algebraic for me. If you were to sketch the two cases: (1) concave down and (2) concave up, and draw on each the interpretation of the mid-point and trapezoidal rules, you might then see a way to answering the question.
 

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