Minimum uncertainty in electron position

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the minimum possible uncertainty in an electron's position (Δx) and the implications of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Participants explore theoretical interpretations, experimental measurements, and the conditions under which such uncertainties can be defined, particularly in relation to the creation of other particles and phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the validity of the localization energy interpretation of the uncertainty relation and seeks clarification on the actual minimum possible Δx for an isolated electron.
  • Another participant points out the Heisenberg uncertainty relation as ΔpΔx ≥ ħ/2, suggesting that Δx can be made arbitrarily small at the cost of increasing Δp.
  • A participant proposes that the smallest Δx achieved experimentally is around the size of an atomic nucleus, approximately 10-15 meters, based on deep inelastic scattering experiments.
  • Another participant remarks that in deep inelastic scattering, it is not feasible to test the non-relativistic Heisenberg uncertainty principle due to the inability to measure the position of a particle during scattering events.
  • This participant also notes that the standard deviation Δx is theoretically computed from the statistical spread of expectation values, which cannot be determined in scattering states due to the interaction term complicating the Schrödinger equation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the minimum possible Δx and the implications of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, with no consensus reached on the validity of the localization energy interpretation or the feasibility of measuring Δx in scattering experiments.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in measuring position and momentum in high-energy scattering events, as well as the dependence on theoretical frameworks that may not be directly testable in practice.

FrederikPhysics
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I am wondering about the minimum possible uncertainty (standard deviation) in an electron's position (Δx). How precise can one know the electron's whereabouts without creating other sorts of particles and phenomenons.
I know of the localization energy interpretation of the energy uncertainty (ΔE). Using a Heisenberg relation we estimate Δx as
ΔEΔx≈ħc/2 ⇒ Δx≈ħ/2mc,​
since E=mc2 for an isolated electron (m is the rest mass). If Δx is smaller than this, extra localization energy manifests itself through other particles.

Now the questions are simple. Is this interpretation valid? What is the actual minimum possible Δx for an isolated electron? Have this been measured?
 
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Wasn't it ##\Delta p\Delta x \ge \displaystyle {\hbar\over 2}## ?
 
FrederikPhysics said:
How precise can one know the electron's whereabouts without creating other sorts of particles and phenomenons.

This is much too vague. What "other sorts of particles and phenomenons" are you thinking of?

FrederikPhysics said:
What is the actual minimum possible Δx for an isolated electron?

Theoretically, there is none; you can make ##\Delta x## as small as you like (as long as it's not zero), at the cost of making ##\Delta p## larger.

I'm not sure what the smallest ##\Delta x## is that has been achieved experimentally, but I think it's somewhere around the size of an atomic nucleus, about ##10^{-15}## meters. I'm basing that on the deep inelastic scattering experiments that first provided evidence for quarks; in these experiments, high energy electrons were fired into nuclei and scattered off quarks inside the nuclei, meaning that the electrons' positions had to be within the size of the nucleus, roughly, for the scattering to occur.
 
Just as a side remark to post # 3: in whatever deep inelastic scattering of (fundamental or not) particles which are highly accelerated (energies of many GeV), there's no practical/theoretical way to test if the (non-relativistic) HUP is valid or not, for you can never measure the position of a particle in a scattering event, nor can you calculate its exact state vector. Remember that ##\Delta x## (the standard deviation from the mean) is theoretically computed as the statistical spread of the expectation values of x and x2 in the scattering state call it ##\psi(t)##. You cannot determine the state, because, due to the interaction term, the SE is not solvable, therefore you cannot calculate any expectation value.
 

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