Modeling eliptical motion of planets

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around modeling the elliptical motion of planets, specifically in the context of Kepler's laws and their application in a programming scenario. Participants explore the challenges of deriving a position-time relationship for planetary motion, considering both two-dimensional and three-dimensional models.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks an equation relating position and time for planetary motion, noting that their current equations assume uniform velocity, which does not apply to planets.
  • Another participant points out that Kepler's laws are not entirely accurate due to gravitational interactions among celestial bodies and suggests that Newton's law of gravitation is also not fully correct, with general relativity being the best model available.
  • A later reply emphasizes that while general relativity is necessary for precise calculations (like those for Mercury), Newtonian mechanics is sufficient for most other planets in the solar system.
  • One participant agrees that Newton's laws are adequate for long-term modeling of the solar system but stresses the importance of considering planetary interactions for accurate results.
  • Participants discuss the need to transition from a two-dimensional to a three-dimensional model to account for the unique orbital planes and perihelion positions of different planets.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the adequacy of Kepler's laws and Newtonian mechanics, particularly regarding their accuracy over time and in different contexts. There is no consensus on a single modeling approach, as multiple perspectives on the use of these laws coexist.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the current modeling approach, including the assumption of uniform velocity and the need for a more complex model to account for three-dimensional interactions among planets.

pompey
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I am trying to write a simple java program to model the motion of planets according to kepler's second law. I have everything working...except I can't find how to find an equation relating position and time. I have

x = a cos(t)
y = b sin(t)

where a and b are the semimajor and semiminor axises respectively, but those equations are for uniform velocity which planets do not exhibit. I've googled around and looked in a few books but I can not find any such equation. I can find the equation for velocity...but I need a model for the actual position. Does anyone know of any such model or have any suggestions?
 
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A couple of caveats first. Kepler's laws are not quite correct. The solar system comprises the sun, eight planets, at least three dwarf planets, and a very large number of smaller bodies. Newton's law of gravitation dictates that these planets, etc will interact with each other as well as with the sun. Moreover, Newton's law of gravitation itself is not quite correct. General relativity is our best model of gravitation to date.

Bottom line: You can use Kepler's laws to propagate the states of the planets. The results however will slowly degrade in accuracy over time, eventually become little more than fiction.

The second caveat is that you have are treating this as a two dimensional problem. You need to go to three dimensions if you want to have more than one planet. Each planet has its own orbital plane that is slightly different from that of any other planet. Moreover, the planets have different arguments of perihelion.

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws#Second_law" gives a four step algorithm for applying Kepler's second law. You need to add one more simple step to get the position of the planet in the orbital plane and with the positive x-axis aligned with the perihelion position: [itex]x=r\cos\theta, y=r\sin\theta[/itex].

You will need to use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_elements" get something that is quite a bit more realistic and still uses Kepler's laws.
 
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While it is true that general relativity is needed in order to for example fully account for the orbit of Mercury, relativistic effects should not be significantly appreciable for the rest of the Solar system.

The (3-D!) Newtonian simplification is more than adequate in most cases concerning celestial mechanics.
 
I agree that with the exception of Mercury, Newton's Laws are more than adequate over a fairly long time span (thousands/tens of thousands of years, maybe a lot more??). In order to accurately model the solar system using the 3D Newtonian model one needs to consider the interactions among planets. Kepler's Laws are an additional approximation on top of Newton's laws.
 

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