News My RunIN with the JackBooted Thugs

[ray b]

I fyou have no respect for the "stupid laws" as you call them, then emmigrate to some country that has laws that you can live with. I don't care if your a 55 year old man. You should know better than to interfere with an arrest. You should also have a handle on what respect means. Yes it has to be earned. However that doesn't mean that you can go around cursing at people all day long or being a bitter person who thinks he is above the law. From reading your post, it seems to me that you still need to grow up. Oh and by the way, Law enforcement and Military personel are NOT pigs. Pigs are barn yard animals that are raised for slaughter so they can be packaged and shipped to your local grocery store.

my people built this place from the ground up
I DO NOT CUT AND RUN
this is home
in spite of the current neo-facist government direction and leadership
I wish there were no PIGS
I wish the cops would weed out the jerks
BUT THAT RARELY HAPPENS
you little yankee school kid have never seen a pig
luckie you
they are very real

I will NEVER BE A "GOOD GERMAN" who blindly belives the goverments

 

[Evo]

Ray, you need to settle down, you appear a bit paranoid and misskitty is right in pointing out that your wholesale slurs against "the establishment" are wrong and unwarranted.

Can you discuss this in a calm, rational manner without resorting to name calling?

 

[misskitty]

Ray, if your heritage has been part of helping build this country and you are proud to call this country "home", then you should at least need to believe in what it stands for. As far as knowing Law and Military personel, I have many family members and extended family members who risk their lives everyday to preserve what we have. Yes, I'm a Yankee and Proud of it.

I'm not saying that everyone who has ever served in a position of law enforecement has an exemplary record. There are many who have quite the opposite. However, be that as it may, I think your overall perception of these people is in no way warrented or respectful and quite frankly I think its wrong.

As far as your "good German" line, my bloodline does not have any German descent in it.

 

[ray b]

Ray, if your heritage has been part of helping build this country and you are proud to call this country "home", then you should at least need to believe in what it stands for. As far as knowing Law and Military personel, I have many family members and extended family members who risk their lives everyday to preserve what we have. Yes, I'm a Yankee and Proud of it.

I'm not saying that everyone who has ever served in a position of law enforecement has an exemplary record. There are many who have quite the opposite. However, be that as it may, I think your overall perception of these people is in no way warrented or respectful and quite frankly I think its wrong.

As far as your "good German" line, my bloodline does not have any German descent in it.

it ain't about being german, note the quotes
it is about not standing up to a government DOING WRONG
like the prewar germans did in WW2 days
it is about a good person DOING NOTHING
saying the government knows best
while the EVIL GROWS STRONGER

 

[misskitty]

By placing your "German" comments in that conotation, you basically call everyone, who has a opinion of the government and the instiution of the law, that differs from your own a nazi. I hardly think that is necessary.

The system doesn't work perfectly, there is no such thing as a perfect system. Its always trying to improve. The system is run by humans, who are falliable.

Now, if you have vaild evidence to support your argument I'd like to see it. However if you have no such evidence to back up your opinion and can only resort to throwing names and catcalls at me then there is no point in continuing this thread any further.

 

[ray b]

you would not believe nore do I have the time or the pactence to teach you
how the real world works here in miami where dead people vote,
cops kill and rob [river cops case],
most officals are for sale to the highest bidder, look at the numbers convicted
justice is for sale as all local judges
have bisness agents [bagmen]
CIA smuggles coke to fund wars, friends worked on the BLACK PLANES that did that
and that's just some of the stuff I saw go down myself and is common knowlage
the truth is stranger then fiction
paranoid no not when real government thugs point real guns at you

 

[BicycleTree]

You know, an oar is probably not much of a weapon. Many oars are 10 or 11 feet long and quite heavy--unwieldy and worse than nothing in a fight. It would be like attacking someone with a 100-pound barbell. Not going to work unless you catch them unawares.

 

[misskitty]

Ray, I know how the real world works. I face it on a consistant basis. It does not surprise me one bit how things work in Miami. However, if you dislike the policies that are in effect then run for office, get elected and change the system. Otherwise, move to some place that has a lower rate of corruption and make sure its on the seacoast. The government is set up so that it can work for you and have the best interests of the general public in mind. Its not a matter of fighting against the system and moaning and groaning about it, its about knowing the system and knowing how to make it work for you or have a lawyer who knows how to make the system work for you. Regardless that's not going to change the fact you made a big mistake by interfering withthe Coast Guard and you were dealt with accordingly. You don't have any of my sympathies as far as your situation goes. You should have known better, and if you didn't then all I can say is I hope you learned your lesson.

BicycleTree, you've got a good point. Imagine how much that would hurt being hit with an oar if someone swung it at you like a baseball bat :. Little to painful to think about. By the way, welcome to PF, its good to have you!

 

[Evo]

You know, an oar is probably not much of a weapon. Many oars are 10 or 11 feet long and quite heavy--unwieldy and worse than nothing in a fight. It would be like attacking someone with a 100-pound barbell. Not going to work unless you catch them unawares.

Hey Bart,

That's why his offense was reduced.

 

[BicycleTree]

I looked online for the manual for the Coast Guard on the use of deadly force. Couldn't find it, but I found similar for the Department of Defense:

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/html/521056.htm

In particular, the following guideline applies to DoD personnel:
E2.1.6.4. In the case of holstered weapons, a weapon should not be removed from the holster unless there is reasonable expectation that use of the weapon may be necessary.


By these rules, if the Coast Guardsmen were in the DoD, they would have acted counter to regulations. Of course, maybe the Coast Guard has much greater authority to use deadly force than DoD personnel.

 

[misskitty]

I'm beginning to hate my computer. It won't let me acess the link you provided Bicycle.

Could someone tell me what DoD stands for please? I don't remember. I'm surprised you even got a link to something dealing with DoD anyway. I conducted a search for the military and law enforcement definition of "assault" and I couldn't get ANYTHING. Which was strange usually I have very little difficulty conducting searches.

 

[BicycleTree]

DoD = Department of Defense

 

[misskitty]

Ah yes. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[Evo]

I looked online for the manual for the Coast Guard on the use of deadly force. Couldn't find it, but I found similar for the Department of Defense:

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/html/521056.htm

In particular, the following guideline applies to DoD personnel:
E2.1.6.4. In the case of holstered weapons, a weapon should not be removed from the holster unless there is reasonable expectation that use of the weapon may be necessary.


By these rules, if the Coast Guardsmen were in the DoD, they would have acted counter to regulations. Of course, maybe the Coast Guard has much greater authority to use deadly force than DoD personnel.

That doesn't apply to the Coast Guard or other law enforcement. Plus if it did, they were acting according to regulations because as it states reasonable expectation that use of the weapon may be necessary. That clearly applies in the case of someone interferring with officers in the middle of an arrest. There was definitely reasonable expectation that use of the weapon may be necessary. Most people in their right mind wouldn't do something like that.

 

[misskitty]

I would really like to have the Military's definition of "assault" as well as their guidelines of when to use their weapons. I don't know if it's different for every branch, but it would be an interesting link for this thread.

As far as Ray goes, Evo I agree the authorities handled the situation the way they did. I don't think their reaction was too much. I'm actually suprised they didn't charge him with misuse of 911. He never should have contacted the authorities through that channel. Why not just look up the number for the police department and call. Or better yet, contact the Coast Guards' superiors since he felt the Coast Guard personel was out of line. The local police could have been left out of the entire situation.

 

[BicycleTree]

That doesn't apply to the Coast Guard or other law enforcement. Plus if it did, they were acting according to regulations because as it states reasonable expectation that use of the weapon may be necessary. That clearly applies in the case of someone interferring with officers in the middle of an arrest. There was definitely reasonable expectation that use of the weapon may be necessary. Most people in their right mind wouldn't do something like that.

About 3/4 of the way down the page there is a section on exactly when deadly force is justified (heading E2.1.2). Basically there are conditions that must be met, and these conditions were not likely to be met in the situation of a man with an oar.

E2.1.2. Deadly force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity and when all three of the following circumstances are present:

E2.1.2.1. Lesser means have been exhausted, are unavailable, or cannot be reasonably employed;

E2.1.2.2. The risk of death or serious bodily harm to innocent persons is not significantly increased by use; and

E2.1.2.3. The purpose of its use is one or more of the following:

(It then proceeds to list and describe at length a number of headings, none of which that situation can reasonably fall under; in addition E2.1.2.2 and E2.1.2.1 are not met)

Yes, this code doesn't apply to Coast Guard, but Department of Defense personnel involved in law enforcement and security are fairly close in function and organization to Coast Guard personnel (who are part of the Department of Homeland Security). What we need to find for this discussion to come to a conclusion is the code that applies specifically to Coast Guard.

 

[chroot]

I don't believe pulling a gun counts as using deadly force; only firing it counts. Can you verify one way or another?

- Warren

 

[BicycleTree]

It doesn't count as using deadly force, but (by those regulations) a gun should not be drawn unless deadly force is expected to be used.

 

[BicycleTree]

Well, unless "use of the weapon" is expected. I believe that using a gun does constitute deadly force because of the substantial likelihood of killing the target. I suppose if you're an expert marksman you could carefully shoot someone in the leg and not be using deadly force. But that's speculation.

 

[Evo]

It doesn't count as using deadly force, but (by those regulations) a gun should not be drawn unless deadly force is expected to be used.

And they had reason to believe that Ray was a potential threat. He interfered with an arrest in progress. Is there some part of that you don't get?

 

[BicycleTree]

Interfering with an arrest in progress is not one of the conditions in that document for use of deadly force. Remember that the only thing Ray did was assault the officer. An oar is not a weapon. Merely giving the officer the finger is assaulting him. A gun should only be drawn in serious, dangerous situations.

Chroot, here is the definition of deadly force (for the Dept of Defense):
3.2. Deadly Force. Force that a person uses causing, or that a person knows or should know would create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm. Deadly force shall be used only as set forth in enclosure 2.

That seems to include use of a gun. I have read somewhere (on a police dept page) definitions of non-deadly force and an intermediate degree of force which I forget the name of, and I think that a gun may be used under some circumstances for the intermediate degree of force, but by the definition in this document it appears shooting someone with a gun is always deadly force.

We really need the document for deadly force for the Coast Guard.

 

[Evo]

Interfering with an arrest in progress is not one of the conditions in that document for use of deadly force. Remember that the only thing Ray did was assault the officer. An oar is not a weapon. Merely giving the officer the finger is assaulting him. A gun should only be drawn in serious, dangerous situations.

Chroot, here is the definition of deadly force (for the Dept of Defense):
3.2. Deadly Force. Force that a person uses causing, or that a person knows or should know would create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm. Deadly force shall be used only as set forth in enclosure 2.

That seems to include use of a gun. I have read somewhere (on a police dept page) definitions of non-deadly force and an intermediate degree of force which I forget the name of, and I think that a gun may be used under some circumstances for the intermediate degree of force, but by the definition in this document it appears shooting someone with a gun is always deadly force.

We really need the document for deadly force for the Coast Guard.

The use of deadly force is firing the weapon. They didn't use deadly force.

 

[BicycleTree]

There must be an expectation to fire the weapon (use deadly force) before the weapon may be drawn.

I will now leave this discussion until such a time as someone links to the relevant document for use of deadly force in the Coast Guard. Further discussion on the current information is now pointless.

 

[honestrosewater]

By the way, why are all of your posts truncated at the ends of the lines like that? No line ever goes all the way to the right side of the text box. The same thing happens to Tournesol. What causes that?

Copypasting from another program, or they're trying to be poetic.

 

[chroot]

The other problem is that we don't really know what ray did. Based on his later posts, it seems likely he was significantly more beligerant than he made himself out to be. We have no idea how severe a threat he made himself out to be.

- Warren

 

[Moonbear]

It doesn't count as using deadly force, but (by those regulations) a gun should not be drawn unless deadly force is expected to be used.

Nope, from your own earlier quote, it states:

E2.1.6.4. In the case of holstered weapons, a weapon should not be removed from the holster unless there is reasonable expectation that use of the weapon may be necessary.

It doesn't say they expect they will use, but that they may need to use it. You're also assuming the oar could not have been used as a weapon, but none of us here knows what size or shape or weight oar he was holding. There is also no way for anyone who was not a witness to know if there was anything threatening in the way the oar was being held, to suggest ray b could have intended to use it as a weapon, even if it would have been an ineffective weapon.

Regardless, the judge already threw out the charges related to holding the oar as a weapon. Ray will have his day in court on the other charges as well. If it turns out he was wrongfully arrested and the remaining charges thrown out, then the proper channel is for him to then file a wrongful arrest complaint against the Coast Guardsman who pulled the gun on him or the police officers who arrested him. He could have filed a complaint regarding the gun being drawn anyway, and if a court found the Coast Guardsman was wrong in drawing it under those circumstances, and there's always room for that possibility, then the CG would be disciplined.

Without any of us having witnessed the events, and through a clearly biased description of the events, the bottom line is none of us can truly say what was right or wrong under those circumstances. That is why arrests are not the end-all-be-all of our justice system.

 

[Zantra]

You know, this reminded me of an incident when I was a youth. Classic case of wrong place, wrong time. I'd just left my friend's house and I was walking through an alley. Along the side of the alley there was a wall about 8-10 feet high, and on the other side was a mcdonalds parking lot. Well as I was walking along the wall, I heard some voices that I thought I knew, so I jumped up and grabbed the wall to peek over it. As I'm jumping up to peek over along comes this cop car blazing down the alley. This startled me as I hadn't see the cop, so I let go of the wall. He comes up asking me What I was doing, and I told him, and he didnt believe me. So he throws me in the cop car, takes me around the corner to a house down the street. He jumps up out and talks to this older woman standing there(I say older, but I was a kid, so she could have been 25). Anyhow, she looks at me, nods, next thing I know I'm heading to the pokey.

Turns out some kids had stolen a moped of hers, and she had seen the backs of them from probably 400 yards away. So she ID'ed me as one of the kids. Needless to say I was not the kid in question, and after "grilling" me for a few hours and not getting me to admit that I'd stolen the bike, the let me go and dropped the charges. If I was an adult at the time I would have turned around and filed a lawsuit, but since I was maybe 15 I just shrugged and went on.

So with all that in mind, ray you're a paranoid nutjob

 

[misskitty]

Interfering with an arrest in progress is not one of the conditions in that document for use of deadly force.

That doesn't count because those rules only apply to civilian law enforcement personel. Not Coast Guard.

Ray was intereferring with an arrest in progess. Evo is right, the only time force becomes deadly is if the weapon discharges, not if its just pointed at someone tagged as potentially dangerous.

 

[misskitty]

The other problem is that we don't really know what ray did. Based on his later posts, it seems likely he was significantly more beligerant than he made himself out to be. We have no idea how severe a threat he made himself out to be.

- Warren

Whatever he did was enough to coorse (sp?) the police to arrest him. I agree with you Warren, I think Ray was more beligerent then he lead us to believe. Which isn't a smart thing to do, but then again we only have one side of the story.

 

[ray b]

BS there was NO ARREST
the man with the suger was let go
as per the coastie he was NEVER ARRESTED mearly detained
and as he had violated NO LAW let go

AND by ingageing the coasties in conversation
and expressing the comunitys outrage at the tactics and M/O and lack of discression in busting people for VERY SMALL amounts drugs for personal use in their HOMES and for various other minor violations NOT COMMONLY INFORCED
while they were in a standing around and WAIT MODE

so just how DID I INTERFEAR with JUSTICE?

and by carrying an oar from a car to a boat without any intent or threat to use the oar, HOW DID I assalt anyone

remember I was not arrested at that point
only told to leave
only after a 9-11 call to report a man WITHOUT ID in a UNMARKED VAN
pulling a GUN and ORDERING me to leave a place where I had every right to be
who CLAIMED to be a coast guards man
or JUST THE FACTS and nothing BUT THE FACTS

and as I saw the coastie move their van [so I thought they left} only then did I return ,BUT stop short of the dock
and speak to the local cops
AND ONLY after instructed by the local cops to come closer and show ID
did I return to the dock
then
after the man who had the suger was let go [and the thugs lost their first victom and were pissed and embarrested as a result] was I arrested on totaly FALSE charges
as I didnot and had no intent of any assault or interfearance with anyone to do anything
in fact the only assault was on me by the GUNMAN
and that is what I tryed to report in the 9-11 call
as I was TRYING TO WORK WITHIN THE SYSTEM