Navigating the Tensions in Ukraine: A Scientific Perspective

[artis]

This video is I believe as close as anyone can get to the emotions of pain and suffering and bravery at the same time

 

[PeroK]

This video is I believe as close as anyone can get to the emotions of pain and suffering and bravery at the same time

We'll probably never know how much we owe the people of Ukraine for fighting as well as they have. They may well have saved half of Europe from a lifetime of Russian occupation, dictatorship, oppression and brutality.

Assuming they survive the onslaught we should work on the assumption that we own them everything.

 

[PeroK]

Your argument seems to be there's no reasonable way for Putin to think NATO is a threat to him now or in the future, but it doesn't really matter what you think is reasonable. It's what he thinks and fears based on his experiences that matters here.

Just to reiterate the Russian position: Ukraine is not actually being attacked, Kyiv has not been shelled and no civilian areas have been hit:



Where does that fit into your assumption of Putin's reasonableness? You're talking about a regime that can look you in the eye and deny there's even a war going on.

How could you possibly imagine holding negotiations with these people? Their world is layer upon layer of lies and misinformation.

Where you see reasonableness, most of us see something from a totalitarian nightmare.

 

[wrobel]

I think the rest of Europe needs a buffer from Russia

looks like the "rest of Europe" consists of the first rate people and the "buffer" consists of the second rate ones.

 

[wrobel]

Putin's not going to be fine with Ukraine joining NATO simply because NATO hasn't seriously threatened Russia so far.

does that justify the invasion?

 

[artis]

looks like the "rest of Europe" consists of the first rate people and the "buffer" consists of the second rate ones.

Actually it was like this, at least in the 20th century. Eastern Europe, especially the Baltic states were the most luxurious part of the USSR , meanwhile after the breakup of the USSR we were looked at as the most degraded and left behind part of Europe, together with maybe Romania and only above countries like Albania , Ukraine etc.
In a sense this is true because our standard were indeed above the USSR average, we surpassed Ukraine, Kazakhstan etc and most of Russia but it was not as high as that attained by people living in capitalist democracies like west Germany, UK, France. Therefore we have always been somewhat in the middle.

Sure enough and most of us here share no illusion that if WW2 did not happen and there was no USSR occupation (but most importantly if the USSR wasn't marxist/communist), we the Baltics would have had a western European life standard all along.
Back in the 1920's and 30's we had a decent little economy going for us. This thread is not the right place for it but we were gaining steam back then.To note some interesting historical facts, we even had some world first's like the company VEF which was a national electronics manufacturer produced the worlds first miniature spy camera "VEF Minox" , invented by a Latvian born German inventor Walter Zapp.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minox
During the Soviet times we participated in a lot of science research and technology development but most of it was incorporated within classified military secrets and the real inventors and scientists never got the world fame they would have gotten if they worked from an independent country. Much of the success was simply written off for the USSR as a whole.

Many really good drugs got invented but sure enough they never got the true recognition they deserved as it all came from "USSR". The drug Mildronate is one good example. It's a heart drug that helps many and has almost no side effects, so much so professional athletes use it until it got included into the "anti doping" list.
https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/education/meldonium/During the USSR few got to ever go out the "Iron curtain" so Baltics was a popular tourist destination from all across the USSR. Our beaches in the 60's , 70's and 80's looked like this daily. In that image there is everyone Ukrainians, Russians, all the "stans" etc.

What you don't see and what today's youth has not learned while those that are too old have forgotten is how all these people were actually a burden for a planned economy like that of the USSR. In a capitalist system this much people would mean money, lots of it, in the USSR this much people in one place meant empty store shelves and endless lines.
The electric trains passing from capital to this resort did pass every 5 minutes but each of them was full to the roof, we Latvians sometimes felt like guests in our own land...This is how it feels being in the middle especially if that middle is a Russian made Marxist superstate with planned economy and social life from George Orwell's "1984"

 

[vela]

Could you, in all honesty, go to Ukraine and look into the eyes of the people there and expound your view? Explain to them that it was the West's expansionism threatening Russia that forced Putin into action against them? That really they should be blaming the EU, the US and the UK for the shelling of their cities, the rape and murder of their people?

The only person laying blame on the West seems to be you. I never did.

 

[vela]

does that justify the invasion?

No. Did I say it did?

 

[PeroK]

No. Did I say it did?

You have been implying fairly strongly that Putin was justified and arguing against the view that it is his unjustified war of aggression and ambition.

 

[vela]

Oh and one more thing, let's stop being hypocritical , I still recall how @ergospherical told me I'm just a armchair wiseguy with slightly above average googling skills , and yet here we are where most of you have piled up the last couple of pages with tons of emotion based speculation and arguing as if any of us had any say in this or any other world conflict.

The same thought crossed my mind. I'll stop posting.

 

[vela]

You have been implying fairly strongly that Putin was justified and arguing against the view that it is his unjustified war of aggression and ambition.

I have not. Describing what I think Putin's mindset is is not the equivalent to justifying his actions. I'll leave it at that.

 

[MikeeMiracle]

Your argument seems to be there's no reasonable way for Putin to think NATO is a threat to him now or in the future

Well, it depends on if you consider surrounding Russia with bases, weapons, troops is a threat or not. I would argue it does constitute a threat in a similar way the how the US has surrounded China with bases constitutes a threat to them. There is no equivalent threat in the other direction from Russia or China, the west or NATO are not "surrounded."

Putin has decided that he doesn't like the Ukrainian leadership and wants to overthrow them. The west decided they don't like Assad in Syria and started a war to overthrow him. The west didn't like Saddam in Iraq and so started a war to overthrow him. None of these wars are justified but due to our political leanings and media bias some are deemed "acceptable" and some are not depending on who is doing the overthrowing and if we consider them as "friendly" nations or not...

This is all just a game the bigger powers play for power and influence, unfortunately the real losers are always the same, the innocent civilians caught in the cross fire.

To clarify I do not support Putin's actions in Ukraine in the same way I didn't support our actions in Syria or Iraq. I struggle to see any necessity for any of the wars that have occurred this century, they all seem to have been wars for influence.

 

[artis]

I have not. Describing what I think Putin's mindset is is not the equivalent to justifying his actions. I'll leave it at that.

I felt just like you before, there is the problem here on PF that even when you attempt to approach the other side intellectually certain members will get emotional and the discussion will resort to "but how could you" "don't you see , children are dying etc" or the other spectrum "let's nuke em preemptively" etc.

Safe to say if I, for example, dare to say that Putin is not just evil but rational in his cruelty then I get to share the blame for the victims in Ukraine. Such approach is nonsense.

Just like I introduced the topic of buffer zones weeks ago here and @PeroK for example added me to the ignore list (no hard feelings, at least not from me Perok, we can interact again whenever you wish), hasn't responded since, is that an intellectual approach? Well I'd say it;s anything but that.
I really don't feel guilty of anything, I explicitly stated that it is not my personal opinion, but who cares , we are ready to die for our viewpoint and opinions aren't we? In this sense we are just like Putin, and truth be told I'm not even sure whether Putin is ready to die for whatever plan he currently believes...

 

[PeroK]

Well, it depends on if you consider surrounding Russia with bases, weapons, troops is a threat or not. I would argue it does constitute a threat in a similar way the how the US has surrounded China with bases constitutes a threat to them. There is no equivalent threat in the other direction from Russia or China, the west or NATO are not "surrounded."

Putin has decided that he doesn't like the Ukrainian leadership and wants to overthrow them. The west decided they don't like Assad in Syria and started a war to overthrow him. The west didn't like Saddam in Iraq and so started a war to overthrow him. None of these wars are justified but due to our political leanings and media bias some are deemed "acceptable" and some are not depending on who is doing the overthrowing and if we consider them as "friendly" nations or not...

This is all just a game the bigger powers play for power and influence, unfortunately the real losers are always the same, the innocent civilians caught in the cross fire.

To clarify I do not support Putin's actions in Ukraine in the same way I didn't support our actions in Syria or Iraq. I struggle to see any necessity for any of the wars that have occurred this century, they all seem to have been wars for influence.

This is all too easy. All wars are wrong and the west is just as bad as Putin. I don't accept that.

Iraq was madness and our governments got away with it. But, Ukraine is fundamentally much worse: it's the destruction of a free democracy (with the view to destroy more free democracies subsequently). And, whatever you think about Iraq, opposition to the war did not result in 15 years in prison. The tragedy is that the Iraq war took place despite all the checks and balances of democracy; despite the balanced reporting.

There are no checks and balances on Putin within Russia. None. He can say what he likes, do what he likes and not a word can be said against him. That ought to terrify you. However much I opposed the Iraq war, I'm not going to shrug and say Putin is no worse than Blair and Bush. That's all too easy.

 

[PeroK]

If Putin is no worse than Zelensky, and democracy no better than tyranny, then why are the Ukrainians fighting with everything they have to resist? Why do I feel sick at the thought of what Russia might do to Eastern Europe?

 

[artis]

If Putin is no worse than Zelensky, and democracy no better than tyranny, then why are the Ukrainians fighting with everything they have to resist? Why do I feel sick at the thought of what Russia might do to Eastern Europe?

Perok will you stop exaggerating , who did compare Putin to Zelensky here?
Nobody did that , not even close, at best some did say that there are geopolitical reasons for this war and geopolitics doesn't care (sadly yes) about human suffering or victims.

I partly agreed with you about how certain EU states had a very vague and delayed action to this war and that was due to their own mercantile reasons.
Truth is always ugly.
Let me give a bit of reality out once more. We in the Baltics are having a tough time thinking how could we come up with alternative to Russian gas. Someone could say (in fact some have said this) "how dare you!, Ukrainians are dying" "stop buying Russian gas"

Well we can stop buying Russian gas now to make a stance , just like some are making a virtual stance here on PF where it costs no money, but then we would freeze to death and ruin our economy which is already taking a hit. In the end of the day we have to do what is realistic, we are helping Ukraine which also costs a lot but we need to stay afloat ,there is no point in helping Ukraine by committing suicide.
This is the sad reality. Already business is down, people struggling , this is the Russian trump card , they know that they have something we so badly need and therefore we will have to twist ourselves in knots in order to stop using it.

Here's an analogy, Russian gas is like heroine and Europe is like a drug addict, it takes a lot of time and effort to get off the needle and change your way.

 

[russ_watters]

I've pruned the recent digression into partisan US politics and reopened the thread (I don't think the digression was meant seriously anyway). I've tried to take a light touch here, so please don't see that as an excuse to go down that rabbit hole again. Specifically, the examples of the US in Cuba and Iraq 2003. I think we can debate their validly as counterexamples to Putin's actions in Ukraine without going down the rabbit hole into US partisan politics (we all seem to agree the US did wrong anyway).

 

[russ_watters]

Russia has been expelled by the UN human rights council:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/russia-suspended-un-human-rights-council-ukraine

 

[pinball1970]

They have reopened the thread. Can we focus on events rather opinions?
At least for now? Please?
There may be something that happens that involves a shift. Putin's family?

 

[pinball1970]

Russia has been expelled by the UN human rights council:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/russia-suspended-un-human-rights-council-ukraine

That

 

[bob012345]

Russia has been expelled by the UN human rights council:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/russia-suspended-un-human-rights-council-ukraine

Weak. Why aren't they expelled from the Security Council? Or from the U.N. period? The United Nations needs to have minimum standards for membership.

 

[Astronuc]

Russia has been expelled by the UN human rights council:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/russia-suspended-un-human-rights-council-ukraine

Why am I not surprised. I listened last night to an interview with the coroner from Bucha. It was troubling to listen to the descriptions of those who were executed, on the streets, as well as in buildings.

I'm getting tired of western commentators say things like 'it looks like war crimes', or 'there will be an investigation of war crimes'. The whole war, i.e., unprovoked invasion of Ukraine by Putin's forces, is a war crime and more so a crime against humanity, and all actions by Russian military are de facto war crimes.

 

[artis]

You know , I am starting to entertain a possibility that isn't realistic now but might have been the better solution.
Now we are doing sanctions and all kinds of political twists but none of that actually changes the situation in Ukraine in any real way. All these sanctions and cutting on gas imports is like a sword with no hand hold, it is pushing into our enemy as much as it is cutting us up as well.

The way I see it is, the only reason Putin did not take Kyiv and murder Zelensky is because his army couldn't , they had too low of a morale and in the words of Girkin from Donbas, because Ukraine's soldiers are fighting on A level. It wasn't the sanctions that stopped that, it was real guns and real people fighting.

Maybe we should have done just some sanctions without hurting ourselves and instead just sent twice or thrice as much weapons and put some real power up against theirs, I know I did not say this before but it's just a thought.
The idea that by starving Russian "babushkas" they will form another paramilitary force and oust Putin from power in a similar way the Bolsheviks murdered the Czar is not only unlikely but somewhat naive.

This is like trying to stop a serial killer by taking away his food stamps, not really a viable way of stopping an aggressor.
Speaking of food, there are rumors rather realistic ones, that some Russian soldiers have skinned down and cooked some Ukrainian dogs for lunch. But then again dogs are consumed as meat in some parts of the world even in peace time so by that token not so horrible I guess. And some Russian troops are from the far east so that would explain stuff

 

[Klystron]

...
Now we are doing sanctions and all kinds of political twists but none of that actually changes the situation in Ukraine in any real way. All these sanctions and cutting on gas imports is like a sword with no hand hold, it is pushing into our enemy as much as it is cutting us up as well. ...

Look at the larger picture in a longer time frame. As an analogy, you cannot view a movie by glimpsing a few frames or follow the plot of a novel by reading one paragraph.

Military operations involve tedious logistics and careful planning. Feints, misdirection and frustration mark irregular warfare. Stories and war movies often have clean endings that adhere to a moral imperative. I can say from experience that modern wars never truly end, 'bad guys' often go unpunished, and innocents always disproportionally suffer.

[edit 20220408: added limiter 'often'. Thanks @PeroK ]

 

[phinds]

Military operations involve tedious logistics and careful planning. Feints, misdirection and frustration mark irregular warfare. Stories and war movies have clean endings that adhere to a moral imperative. I can say from experience that modern wars never truly end, 'bad guys' often go unpunished, and innocents always disproportionally suffer.

True dat !

 

[bob012345]

Russians discussed killings of civilians in radio traffic intercepted by Germany, officials say​

The conversations were intercepted from Russian military radio and include one Russian telling another that first you interrogate people and then you kill them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/07/...lings-russian-communications-intercepted.html

 

[phinds]

Russians discussed killings of civilians in radio traffic intercepted by Germany, officials say​

The conversations were intercepted from Russian military radio and include one Russian telling another that first you interrogate people and then you kill them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/07/...lings-russian-communications-intercepted.html

NYT is not a free/open site. Some other reference would be better.

 

[bob012345]

NYT is not a free/open site. Some other reference would be better.

https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...-bucha-a-0a191c96-634f-4d07-8c5c-c4a772315b0d

 

[Isopod]

A little breakdown of some of the weapons the West is pledging to Ukraine:

 

[Vanadium 50]

The United Nations needs to have minimum standards for membership.

Diplomacy only with people you already like doesn't get you very far.

 

[bob012345]

Diplomacy only with people you already like doesn't get you very far.

There are limits to diplomacy. Churchill took the decision not to negotiate with Hitler and he was right. What you do with leaders like Hitler is you destroy them, not make deals with them. Putin has instructed his troops to act like the SS in Ukraine so he is now beyond political redemption. There is no legitimate path for diplomacy with Russia so long as it is led by Putin. Western leaders should make that clear.

 

[Klystron]

NYT is not a free/open site. Some other reference would be better.

https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...-bucha-a-0a191c96-634f-4d07-8c5c-c4a772315b0d

FYI Der Spiegel site blocks my browser unless I agree to join. No problem as I can read NYT articles.

 

[phinds]

FYI Der Spiegel site blocks my browser unless I agree to join. No problem as I can read NYT articles.

Huh. NYT blocks my browser unless I join. No problem as I can read Der Spiegel articles.

Maybe it depends on how many freebies we've gotten from each site.

 

[BillTre]

Maybe it depends on how many freebies we've gotten from each site.

This is how NY Times wotrks. Some low number of articles/month.

 

[strangerep]

Russia has been expelled by the UN human rights council:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/07/russia-suspended-un-human-rights-council-ukraine

I know very little detail about how the UN is constituted, so I'm wondering whether "permanent" members of the security council are indeed truly permanent, or could be removed by a large majority vote by the General Assembly? Or is it totally impossible to remove a "permanent member" without disintegrating the entire UN?

 

[phinds]

This is how NY Times wotrks. Some low number of articles/month.

Right and I constantly reach my limit early

 

[strangerep]

Putin has instructed his troops to act like the SS in Ukraine [...]

Coincidentally, I watched a tv documentary last night about the "Barbarossa" operation in WW2. It's astonishingly "deja vu" how Stalin refused (delusionally) to realize that a massive Wehrmacht buildup on the USSR borders was just "performing exercises" according to Hitler.
I also hadn't realized how vehemently Hitler wanted his invading troops and SS to kill absolutely everyone.

 

[artis]

Look at the larger picture in a longer time frame. As an analogy, you cannot view a movie by glimpsing a few frames or follow the plot of a novel by reading one paragraph.

Indeed and in the longer time frame if I add in what has happened with the invasion so far I think I would be +- on the mark if I said that if Ukraine had better tools from the start they actually had a chance to inflict 2x as much damage to the Russians as they currently have , add to that the Russian mistakes and morale problems there I think there was a real possibility to make them suffer so much so that they have to retreat and can't even regroup to start a smaller single front in the east as they are doing now.
The Finns made the Red army suffer plenty back in 1940 in way more dismal conditions and eventually due to Red army mistakes won.

bad guys' often go unpunished, and innocents always disproportionally suffer.

Yes true, but again the suffering happened mostly because Ukrainian front was outnumbered in weapons systems. The actual number of men fighting is roughly equal (about 200k troops before invasion at the border, Ukraine has about 200k active members in total) and from Russian own commander rhetoric the Ukrainian side actually seems to fight more fiercely and are better prepared.probably not a popular opinion but the reality is that Ukraine somewhat suffers from the same problems Russia does, according to Transparency international Ukraine is in the 122nd place for corruption globally, that is just 14 spots above Russia IIRC.
https://www.transparency.org/en/countries/ukraine

I already gave the video explaining how Ukraine was asked to scrap their Soviet strategic bombers, some given back to Russia. Many of their weapons systems were left for total disrepair until 2014, sure enough with a pro Moscow president.

Anyway I'm just saying that the way it looks now it is by no means clear which side would have been the

disproportionally suffer.

(Soviets lost about 15k men in Afghanistan in 10 years, Russians have lost probably more than that in a month or so now, speaking about disproportion...)
and whether

'bad guys' often go unpunished

 

[artis]

US supplies to reinforce Poland is what it seems, I wonder what that large bulldozer is for, is that for making large trenches for border fortifications of tanks and such? @Klystron

 

[artis]

You can watch this video, switch on English subtitles, I finally found this version, it was in Russian TV before this invasion, some time ago.
You will be shocked, but this is just business a usual for them. @wrobel haven't you seen this in case?


From a military stance there is some truth to that, the "Suwalki corridor" or gap is indeed a weak point from a military approach.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/suwalki-gap.htm

Here is a short and good video explaining what this gap is about and how dangerous of a weakness it is.
I myself think there is only one way of both cementing NATO trust and solving the physical problem of defending the Baltics, simply there need to be much more NATO permanent troops stationed here. And we need some god damn weapons, I hope those SAM's arrive here soon...
It is rather risky to simply have that 5th article of NATO on paper but no "boots" on the ground and if in case Russia does pull off a successful "blitzkrieg" to take the Suwalki and encircle the Baltics those NATO fast response forces might not have time to arrive while the little force here on the ground might not be enough to hold off. Then what does NATO do?

 

[PeroK]

Stories and war movies have clean endings that adhere to a moral imperative.

That depends on the books you choose to read and the movies you choose to watch.

 

[pinball1970]

Diplomacy only with people you already like doesn't get you very far.

Not that clear cut regarding the voting. Some votes against expected and possibly a few abstentions but I did not expect these numbers.From the BBC today

“93 UN member states backed the US-led move to suspend Russia. But there are 193 UN members, so less than half voted in favour:

58 abstained, 24 voted against, a further 18 were out of the room having what UN diplomats wryly call a "strategic coffee break".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60991746

 

[PeroK]

Not that clear cut regarding the voting. Some votes against expected and possibly a few abstentions but I did not expect these numbers.From the BBC today

“93 UN member states backed the US-led move to suspend Russia. But there are 193 UN members, so less than half voted in favour:

58 abstained, 24 voted against, a further 18 were out of the room having what UN diplomats wryly call a "strategic coffee break".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60991746

Nevertheless, it's the first time that India has defied Russia. If India does not eventually recoil at the horror of the Russian atrocities, then the future of humanity is bleak indeed.

 

[artis]

A really good interview ,


I think Snider is right , nobody believed Ukraine can win this (I'll be honest I also didn't), now the prospect is real, the battle ground is also known in advance , Russians have been rather open about where they will be. They will be in the east and around Crimea and Mariupol where they already are. The time is also known, Putin will hold his 9th may WW2 victory parade in Red square as is done annually so he has about a month so Ukraine has about a month. It is then a surreal and violent form of a "Squid game" (yes I liked that show) now where the side that is able to hold out the longest and inflict the most damage wins.

This means basically one thing, there needs to be a huge column of weapons heading through Poland into Ukraine. Given we here have already donated about 1/3 of our annual defense budget in weapons to Ukraine, I ask where is Germany, France, UK and US ofcourse, the sum of money needed is so huge only they can pull it off together.

 

[vela]

Right and I constantly reach my limit early

Try using a private window in your browser to access the site. That's how I usually get around those kinds of limits.

 

[artis]

I updated myself this morning on some news. Sharing it in this post



This one is especially depressing , a 11 year old girl explains death and genocide so calmly


Some more destruction and rubble




By the way I just noticed something if you look at the word "rubble" it needs one less "b" to turn into the Russian currency. And it sounds almost the same from the start...

 

[pinball1970]

Nevertheless, it's the first time that India has defied Russia. If India does not eventually recoil at the horror of the Russian atrocities, then the future of humanity is bleak indeed.

Fair play to India
No one in their right mind would think these actions are ethical, justified.

The countries that abstained or voted against obviously have a mandate, no matter what do not vote against Russia.

Political or financial connections zero to do with ethics or humanitarian side.

Putin does not have a great record with forgive and forget with people who have criticized him.

 

[artis]

The countries that abstained or voted against obviously have a mandate, no matter what do not vote against Russia.

The same reason why China is building infrastructure in Africa in their "Belt and road" initiative.
They are sort of tying the hands of poor countries behind their backs so that not only they owe them a debt but they also feel "respect" towards China which might manifest as a refusal to condemn a potential future aggression by China towards it's neighbors.

Taiwan clearly comes to mind as an example.

China so far has been "tip toeing" their imperial policy like a ballet dancer with a rifle on their back. Successfully avoiding direct cruelty and violence (unless you count the domestic violence happening within China) but I myself share no illusion as to what China is capable and how they would do it in a second if they knew they could get away with it.

 

[MikeeMiracle]

Weak. Why aren't they expelled from the Security Council? Or from the U.N. period? The United Nations needs to have minimum standards for membership.

That would just further the narrative that the UN is controlled by the west and things like the decisions of prosecutions of the ICC are also a tool used by the west to further their own influence. Have they ever investigated alleged war crimes of western soldiers actions in the countless wars we have been involved with over the years? The US was even demanding that their own soldiers are exempt from prosecution. Why does this matter? It all feeds into the mindset that they are tools used by the west used to influence others. In effect Russia and China see everything stacked against them which has some basis of truth to it.

As a scientific forum if someone proposes a new theory we demand proof, evidence and cross referencing. These same standards should be applied to the coverage of geopolitical events, blindly believing one narrative without any attempts to understand the other side just entrenches peoples views and puts us on a path to further conflict, which I fear we are currently on.

 

[MikeeMiracle]

As for the responses to my previous thread about "over simplifying" the situation. You can't really get more over simplified than the default "Good vs Evil" narrative we are fed in our national media EVERY time we get involved in a conflict. It is almost never as simple as this and there are always two sides to all stories. The last time a simple "Good vs Evil" case existed was against Hitler IMO. What we consider "Good" or "Evil" just depends on which side of the fence you sit. One sides terrorist is another sides freedom fighter.