Navigating the Tensions in Ukraine: A Scientific Perspective

[Rive]

What we consider "Good" or "Evil" just depends on which side of the fence you sit.

Where do the late inhabitants of Bucha sits in that context?

I could somewhat understand Russian viewpoint for some time but that ended with them crossing the border, and completely reversed with the first cluster bombs hitting civilian areas.
And by now, this goes exactly by the simplicity of the age you mentioned.

 

[artis]

That would just further the narrative that the UN is controlled by the west and things like the decisions of prosecutions of the ICC are also a tool used by the west to further their own influence.

Also the saying comes to mind that "keep your friends close and your enemies closer"

Have they ever investigated alleged war crimes of western soldiers actions in the countless wars we have been involved with over the years?

I think there are two reasons for that, purely based on anecdotal evidence (which in war is often the only evidence you can get, especially back in the day) is that first the west has done on average far less war crimes than armies like Russian and China and Japan during WW2 for example. You can read about Japanese medical experiments in live "patients" which were POW's , the west hasn't gone that far ever I think.
Waterboarding in US is already considered a form of terror, in Russia waterboarding is considered a tool so weak they don't even attempt to use it...

The other reason I think west has largely got away with their stuff like the A bombing of Japan, is because the victor writes the rules. The same applies to USSR. USSR got away with tons of stuff, they rewrote history to their liking and then taught that in schools.
They murdered Polish intelligence and officers by the thousands in Katyn massacre and then said for 50 years it was the Germans who did it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacreAnd one last difference which I think is crucial is this. If you look at recent history , you can see that on average US has toppled or invaded regimes that have been more or less hostile. Sure Iraq was a huge blunder and possibly a war crime but Sadam wasn't exactly a democratic person with a perfect human rights record, Libya was arguably worse because unlike Sadam who at least got a court to make a ruling on his death sentence Gaddafi on the other hand was executed street gang style but then again let's not forget that Gaddafi financed some foreign bombings and terrorism and although under debate still possibly plaid a role in the Lockerbie bombing of the Pan Am plane.

So yes US has done some stuff that really degrades it's position as the arbiter of justice but at least it has done that to leaders that have been compromised one way or the other.
Russia on the other hand invaded Latvia in 1940, then finally in 1945 , it dismembered our democratically elected government, nationalized and stole businesses from our countrymen, deported thousand of our people, murdered thousands others for the simple crime of having more money, it killed our president and highest government officials etc etc.
So although I have gotten into fights with @russ_watters on this same topic before I do have to agree on simple arithmetic an say that in world where no one is perfect you simply compare two evils and conclude which is the lesser one. And US has clearly been a lesser evil overall.

 

[Rive]

The other reason I think west has largely got away with their stuff like the A bombing of Japan, is because the victor writes the rules.

It's a bit different than that. That time there were no rules against terror bombing civilians at all. So things like this were not illegal (and nuclear bombs were not known at all).

Regarding the 'victor writes the rules' - the new rules banned these methods. This part actually really supports my belief in humanity being able to be human, after all: regardless all the still immoral s*t afterwards.

 

[artis]

One sides terrorist is another sides freedom fighter.

This has been true but cannot be applied to all cases equally. For example US sponsored mujahideen so that they can fight the USSR invasion of Afghanistan and they did and then decades later some of them joined Al Qaeda and destroyed New York's lower Manhattan by collapsing the WTC complex or as is known more commonly 9/11.
So this clearly was a case where the Afghans who fought the Soviets were indeed terrorists (some of them) waiting to happen, sadly. Their aggressive form of Islam is largely to blame for this but that is a whole different subject.

But there are other cases where one sides freedom fighter is not a terrorist the next morning after some Ham and cheese.
I wrote about Ukraine Azov fighters some time ago here and how some of them have a liking for Nazi ideology but they are the minority, the absolute most of Ukrainians fighting Russia now are simply Ukrainians who want their land, they are just freedom fighters without being terrorists.If you'd wish to find a good current example of where "freedom fighters" are also terrorists at the same time then I think Afghanistan and Taliban is the best example that comes to mind.
Taliban does fight for their land but they use governance methods that are textbook terrorism. So in case some other country broke into Afghanistan again, like China or Russia we would have a huge problem because supporting Taliban is like shooting yourself in the knee.

 

[Isopod]

‘Kill them all’: Chilling moment Russian troops ‘ordered to wipe out village’​

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/08/kill...-troops-ordered-to-wipe-out-village-16427816/

 

[PeroK]

‘Kill them all’: Chilling moment Russian troops ‘ordered to wipe out village’​

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/08/kill...-troops-ordered-to-wipe-out-village-16427816/

What we consider "Good" or "Evil" just depends on which side of the fence you sit. One sides terrorist is another sides freedom fighter.

 

[Isopod]

PeroK what are you insinuating by quoting that Good/Evil quote? Are you trying to suggest that the Russian murderers are somehow someones freedom fighter?

 

[PeroK]

PeroK what are you insinuating by quoting that Good/Evil quote? Are you trying to suggest that the Russian murderers are somehow someones freedom fighter?

I'm highlighting that that is what others think. Perhaps i respond too emotionally to the horrors of war. I can't intellectualise them away.

This thread should be closed.

 

[Isopod]

I'm highlighting that that is what others think. Perhaps i respond too emotionally to the horrors of war. I can't intellectualise them away.

This thread should be closed.

Anyone who thinks that the Russians are freedom fighters, are just brainwashed by Russian propaganda.

I get the quote (its an old quote and a good one), but its totally misplaced putting it here (IMO) as the Russian soldiers aren't liberating Ukrainians or Russians from anything (they are an invading, murdering force) and quoting it makes you look like a pro-Putin sympathiser (or at least gullible/susceptible to his rhetoric).

Most people in Russia don't want this war, tens of thousands of people have been protesting it in Russia but they are being beaten, shot at and imprisoned en masse by Putins regime. Many more people would be protesting and vocalising against the war (& against Putin!) but they are afraid of what will happen to them (or their families) if they do.

The internet is run rampant with pro-Russian bot accounts spouting endless pro-Putin propaganda while trying to spread misinformation about Zelensky and the Ukrainian people, don't fall for it!
Putin's voices need to be combatted with strong & united voices from West who firmly stand with the Ukrainians and their accounts of things (etc).

 

[PeroK]

We shouldn't be discussing this on PF. It's too emotional now.

 

[artis]

@Isopod Perok just quoted another member in a sarcastic way , trust me he doesn't think what you are implying in fact the exact opposite of that and in a rather emotional way.
And often when the emotions run too high , he asks for the thread to be closed even though has added himself to the very reason for it's closure.
Anyway let's not get emotional or divert into side issues, I will try to post only news or opinion directly related to the conflict, as I have been also guilty of messing this thread up at some points.

 

[pinball1970]

The UK and Czech republic are sending more kit,. Good they need it.

 

[MikeeMiracle]

Where do the late inhabitants of Bucha sits in that context?

As they always do, as innocent civilians. It's why I hate all this posturing by the bigger powers as it's always the civilians which end up suffering most in any conflict through no fault of their own :(

 

[pinball1970]

As they always do, as innocent civilians. It's why I hate all this posturing by the bigger powers as it's always the civilians which end up suffering most in any conflict through no fault of their own :(

Yes. Too terrible to contemplate presently which is why it is difficult to post in an unemotional way.The BBC link intimated the Russian forces will make a new offensive soon and the west is getting heavy duty kit ready to send to the UkraineThe Russian minister (in the link) admitted the troops had suffered “significant loses”This is great news, they must indeed be significant for them to admit this.

Possibly word has filtered through to the Russian people that all is NOT going well and lying about it continually is probably not the best move?

 

[MikeeMiracle]

The BBC link intimated the Russian forces will make a new offensive soon and the west is getting heavy duty kit ready to send to the Ukraine

I wonder what kit this constitutes this time around, I was reading about the head of the EU saying yesterday that they have sent £1billion Euro's worth of arms to Ukraine since the start of the war but also in that time given £35billion Euro's to Russia for Oil & Gas...

 

[Isopod]

We shouldn't be discussing this on PF. It's too emotional now.

I think it sounds like you need some time out from this Ukraine news coverage and this kind of discussion. And that is totally Ok (and very important!).In this day & age of never-ending anxiety producing news coverage (war, global warming, pandemic, etc), if you're to maintain good mental health, then self-regulation over what kind of news content & discussions you subject yourself to is very important.I certainly get too much of my fill of the war in Ukraine sometimes (too many disturbing stories and stressful turns of events, I've certainly lost sleep over Ukrainian events many times since this all began) so I do sign out of the news sometimes to help keep me focused on what I need to do in my own life and to help protect my welbeing.But even if you know exactly where you stand, I feel its important to not spread opinions which could possibly (at a glance) feed into Putin's narrative.Pro-Kremlin bot accounts are seriously responsible for huge part of the rise in many problems in the West, such as spreading anti-vax theories and misinformation about Covid-19:"From Russia with hate: How pro-Kremlin bots are fuelling chaos and lies about the pandemic": https://metro.co.uk/2021/07/10/how-...elling-covid-19-conspiracy-theories-14867186/"Study Shows How Russian, Chinese Disinformation About COVID-19 Evolved During The Pandemic": https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-china-covid-disinformation-campaigns/31590996.html"Covid Conspiracies Leak From Russia’s Lie Labs": https://cepa.org/covid-conspiracies-leak-from-russias-lie-labs/To spreading alt-right narratives in the West:"Russia’s propaganda machine amplifies alt-right": https://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/348054-russias-propaganda-machine-amplifies-alt-right/"Russian ‘botnet’ promotes far-right messages in German election": https://www.politico.eu/article/russian-botnet-promotes-far-right-messages-in-german-election/"Exclusive: Russian operation masqueraded as right-wing news site to target U.S. voters - sources": https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-election-russia-disinformation-idUSKBN26M5OP"Troll factories, bots and fake news: Inside the Wild West of social media": https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...ake-news-inside-the-wild-west-of-social-mediaAnd now the Kremlin is turning its attention to use its bot accounts & troll factories to spread misinformation about Ukraine & spread pro-Russian sentiments:"Anti-vax conspiracy groups lean into pro-Kremlin propaganda in Ukraine": https://www.politico.eu/article/antivax-conspiracy-lean-pro-kremlin-propaganda-ukraine/"‘Bot holiday’: Covid disinformation down as social media pivot to Ukraine": https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/mar/04/bot-holiday-covid-misinformation-ukraine-social-media"Twitter bot network amplifying Russian disinformation about Ukraine war, researcher says": https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...rk-amplifies-russian-disinformation/100944970"How Russian “Troll factory” tried to effect on Ukraine’s agenda. Analysis of 755 000 tweets": https://voxukraine.org//longreads/twitter-database/index-en.html"Infamous Russian Troll Farm Appears to Be Source of Anti-Ukraine Propaganda": https://www.propublica.org/article/...pears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propagandaSuch a huge amount of the problems we have seen in the West from vaccine misinformation & anti-vaxxer movements to rises in racism, homophobia, intolerance, general paranoia and more, did not happen organically in the echo chambers of the internet, but were directly artificially engineered and stoked by Putin's virtual bot war on the West. And he does this to not only politically and socially destabalize and weaken us (look at the Capital Riots!), but to manipulate far-right people into positions of power who are sympathetic towards Russia (I mean just look at the state of so many governments in the mightiest Western countries now- they are so infected with Russian money and pro-Kremlin people! Its unreal).

Putin is not just an enemy of Ukraine, but to science and all our freedoms.

I used to be very dubious when it came to our wars abroad but when it comes to Ukraine, I have no doubts about where I stand with that and where I stand with Putins Russia. And while we likely aren't told the entire truth all the time, that doesn't matter to me; I will try to never do or say anything which could undermine or doubt anything that the Ukrainians are going through because I stand with Ukraine and because I don't want to feed into any of Putin's "Illusory Truth Effect" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect ) game against both Ukraine and the entire Western world.

It is our patriotic duty, of national importance to our democracies & freedoms, to fight the war of words against Putin online with our own strong, united and unflinching narratives which utterly dispute the pro-Kremlin agenda and which stand firmly with the West.

 

[pinball1970]

I wonder what kit this constitutes this time around, I was reading about the head of the EU saying yesterday that they have sent £1billion Euro's worth of arms to Ukraine since the start of the war but also in that time given £35billion Euro's to Russia for Oil & Gas...

Yes that is true.

That has been discussed in the thread, we are currently playing ball in terms of energy supply because that is where we are.

UK has indicated changing supplier by the end of 2022.

I will sleep easier if they pulled the plug now, unfortunately we have industry schools transport and ICU wards that need Putins oil.

It stinks but that is where we are.

 

[pinball1970]

"UK PM Boris Johnson is meeting German Chancellor Olaf Scholz for talks and will give a joint news conference later"

 

[Isopod]

Russian atrocities: Evidence of civilian killings, rape and torture in northern Ukraine | DW News​

Sharing space with the dead - horror outside Chernihiv, Ukraine - BBC News​

I want Putin dead

 

[pinball1970]

These are small things but we have to take them.

All proceeds go to humanitarian relief.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61037080

 

[Isopod]

These are small things but we have to take them.

All proceeds go to humanitarian relief.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61037080

That's really cool of Pink Floyd to reunite for Ukraine!

Muse are also doing some concerts for Ukraine in London on 9ths/10th May:

https://www.billboard.com/music/rock/muse-intimate-london-shows-aid-ukraine-1235050015/

Portishead, IDLES and Billy Nomates are doing one on 2nd May:

https://www.nme.com/news/music/port...bristol-war-child-concert-for-ukraine-3200058

And The Royal Opera House is holding a concert for Ukraine on the 15th April:

https://www.roh.org.uk/tickets-and-events/the-royal-opera-concert-for-ukraine-details

(Ed Sheeran, Camila Cabello and Gregory Porter also obviously did a concert recently for Ukraine: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/mar/25/it-feels-like-live-aid-all-star-concert-for-ukraine-joins-war-relief-effort )

 

[pinball1970]

Ok last one for a bit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61038122

£275 billion is not a small amount of money.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There are limits to diplomacy

Yes there are. One of tehm is called "war":. Is that the one you are advocating for?

 

[russ_watters]

The problem, as ever, is that no one has any claim to views that are more valid than anyone else's. I have my views and others have theirs and we will never agree even on basic facts. I wish it was otherwise, but it's not.

From a practical standpoint that is clearly true, but from a scientific/logical and moral standpoint it clearly isn't/can't be. Even as [physics] Relativity tells us there are different ways to view and describe the same events, the events themselves are unambiguous/non-negotiable. The only real issue in the way of understanding accurately and universally is whether they've been observed/measured/communicated accurately. "I'm driving 60mph" and "I'm driving 5mph" seem to contradict, but don't if described more completely: "I'm driving 60mph wrt the ground" and "I'm driving 5mph faster than the guy I just passed."

The first line is a statement on moral relativity, which again is true in practice and can function for small scale/low stakes issues, but it doesn't work globally/universally...even though a lot of people believe it. It's what Hobbes was talking about and what society exists to correct/prevent.

War is the ultimate in moral absolutism and sitting on the sidelines and watching atrocities is moral relativism in practice, but moral cowardice in belief. Nearly everyone in the world shares the same view on the immorality of offensive war and the need to protect civilians. The proliferation and enforcement of moral absolutes, replacing "might makes right" and "not my problem" relativism is what ushered in the era of historically unparalleled peace since WWII.

@Rive is right on the platitude that the victors make the rules. It only limited in truth at best. Germany and Japan have both signed the Geneva conventions, including ones from prior to WWII. And the US is clearly a rulemaker on the global stage despite losing in Vietnam and Afghanistan. It seems victors and defeated alike agree on the rules, even if they don't follow them. Perhaps the better platitude would be "rules for thee, not for me"? Regardless of who makes them.

Also, a bit of a throw-in, but the "the victor writes the history books" is an even worse platitude. It may have been true in ancient times when conquerors erased the existence of the conquered, but it certainly hasn't been true for a century or several. Regardless of who wins in Ukraine, it's not going to change how history views the conflict to this point.

 

[bob012345]

Yes there are. One of them is called "war":. Is that the one you are advocating for?

We all want peace but there are two roads to peace. One is appeasement with aggressors and the other is through victory. In this case I would choose peace through victory. There is no moral equivalence to both sides in this war.

 

[PeroK]

As they always do, as innocent civilians. It's why I hate all this posturing by the bigger powers as it's always the civilians which end up suffering most in any conflict through no fault of their own :(

The millions of Russian civilians who have supported Putin and who support this war are not suffering in the way the Ukrainians are. I can't imagine there have been any Russian civilian deaths other than those inflicted against anti-war protesters.

Meanwhile, the Ukrainian armed forces are suffering casualties. I don't see why the death of a Ukrainian soldier is any less tragic than the death of a Ukrainian civilian.

This is a war of aggression by one country on another. Increasingly the purpose of that war is to kill as many Ukrainians as possible. Even to suggest a moral equivalence here is at best intellectual cowardice and at worst inhumane in the extreme.

 

[artis]

And the US is clearly a rulemaker on the global stage despite losing in Vietnam and Afghanistan

Don't forget Korea.

Also, a bit of a throw-in, but the "the victor writes the history books" is an even worse platitude. It may have been true in ancient times when conquerors erased the existence of the conquered, but it certainly hasn't been true for a century or several.

When I said it I did not meant it as a blanket statement, clearly there are different levels of rewriting history.
The free world largely has open access to information so someone in US believing in historical false hoods does so either out of his own lack of knowledge and stupidity or because of his choice, but it's not the same in countries like Russia and China for example.
In Russia especially during the Soviet years the history rewriting was so massive that many simply had no choice but to learn a history as it was taught to them.
So your statement only applies to certain parts of the world not the whole world.
Today it's harder to conceal the truth thanks to information technology but still the amount of people in Russia who will believe Ukrainians brought this upon themselves will be in the millions.

I just played chess with a Russian online, talked few words over Ukraine, he said Zelensky can end this at any time and then there will be no civilian suffering. All he has to do is to admit Crimea and Donbas as Russian land... Lavrov himself couldn't have said it better.If you want an extreme example see Afghanistan , Taliban doesn't allow girls to finish school, so they don't even have to rewrite history to suit there twisted way of life, they simply don't know history altogether.

 

[russ_watters]

When I said it I did not meant it as a blanket statement, clearly there are different levels of rewriting history.
The free world largely has open access to information so someone in US believing in historical false hoods does so either out of his own lack of knowledge and stupidity or because of his choice, but it's not the same in countries like Russia and China for example.
In Russia especially during the Soviet years the history rewriting was so massive that many simply had no choice but to learn a history as it was taught to them.
So your statement only applies to certain parts of the world not the whole world.

That's a totally different thing, but it speaks to the more accurate description of the issue: Autocrats and imperialists/conquerers rewrite history regardless of whether they win or lose. Free societies don't.

 

[PeroK]

The war in Ukraine reveals these things:

1) The unlimited capacity for human cruelty and barbarity. We may all have this capacity in our DNA, but ultimately the rule of any law and the judgement of people is what you do and not what someone else claims you might be just as capable of doing.

2) The unlimited capacity for endurance and suffering. In one sense, Ukraine cannot surrender as the atrocities thereafter would have no constraints. However many the Russians can kill in a war pales in comparison with the extermination of 40 million people that they could carry out against a defeated Ukraine.

There is no moral equivalence here. And, it may not be "good" against "evil", but it is one side fighting for the right to live and survive and one side fighting for the right to exterminate an entire population.

 

[russ_watters]

1) The unlimited capacity for human cruelty and barbarity.

Ain't that the truth. I was just talking about this with a non-western friend who scoffed at the bubble we westerners live in. We've allowed ourselves to believe that that capacity disappeared after WWII and would "never again" happen/be allowed to happen. But that's just our privilege of being in that bubble.

 

[artis]

Autocrats and imperialists/conquerers rewrite history regardless of whether they win or lose.

Just to give an example of what I said , I mentioned the Katyn massacre earlier.

If you grew up during the USSR times you simply learned in history that Katyn was done by Germans. There simply was no way of even know the truth. Radio, TV , papers were all easily controllable media formats.
Libraries had only books approved by special commissions that had read each book before approving it for mass usage. Unless you had some aunt who directly witnessed those events and could pin point which man in which uniform did what you had no way of knowing.

You couldn't even put such information within artistic satire or a film, because those had to go through the KGB special commission on arts etc too, there was a special branch of KGB that only focused on literature , others on movies and cinema, music, books, not a word uttered could escape someones mouth unless it wasn't screened.

So whenever we talk about why Russians believe in propaganda so much well part of the reason is because their system has never ever in history given them anything besides just that.
The brief years of Yeltsin were merely a drop of water within the Sahara.

If it wasn't for the internet and modern means of quick transportation and communication Russia would be effectively not much further where it was in 1917 in terms of information,Well there were people from the intelligentsia and some others that knew the truth behind many events but they could barely say it to others. The only real change came with Gorbachev and in the second half of 80's.
So much so one of our local politicians dared to speak in Moscow in the Kremlin palace of Congress in 1988 IIRC, where he read out the secret parts of the Molotov Ribbentrop pact and openly claimed that Latvia had been invaded and occupied by the USSR in 1940.
The man who said it was Mavriks Vulfsons.
When he said what he said even in 88, there was a silence in the auditorium and the shock permeated the hall, some did not even know this was historic fact, others did not want to acknowledge.
https://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/9651/
Just as a remainder, Russia hasn't admitted any of the invasions and occupations that happened during the buildup of the USSR in the 20th century till this day, there should be no illusion they will admit anything with respect to Ukraine

 

[Vanadium 50]

Are you arguing that the West should declare war on Russia?

 

[pinball1970]

Are you arguing that the West should declare war on Russia?

We are already fighting a war, a propaganda war, a financial/sanctions war, a munitions war. We are not firing any bullets or sacrificing our soldiers or watching our women and children die , we are getting the Ukraines to do that for us.

 

[artis]

Are you arguing that the West should declare war on Russia?

Is that a question for me ?

 

[bob012345]

Are you arguing that the West should declare war on Russia?

An unofficial state of war exists. Any official declaration should be only if Russia attacks a NATO country. We should just recognize that Ukraine is fighting for the whole Western World and we need to support them with weapons and supplies to make sure they prevail. They have plenty of willing fighters.

 

[PeroK]

Are you arguing that the West should declare war on Russia?

I'm not saying Tobias Ellwood has all the answers, but I think he outlines a possible means of engagement:



The other point is that NATO includes several countries bordering Russia, Belarus and Ukraine and they need to make a decision about whether they need to get involved.

 

[artis]

If the question on whether to declare war on Russia is asked to me, let me answer like this...
US invaded Afghanistan to destroy Al Qaeda for the deaths of nearly 3000 Americans on 9/11
US invaded Iraq for far less, and on questionable groundsMeanwhile the USSR has murdered millions (no one knows the real number) and that was even before WW2.
So if we forget about fear, destruction , nuclear holocaust etc etc but just focus on the number of innocent deaths, war crimes, state terrorism and such then we should have invaded and toppled the regime of Russia about 90 years ago during the 1930's and Stalin's rule.
Purely from a just and honest viewpoint without considering anything else our military response is at least 90 years too late.
China (it's communist regime) should have been disassembled back in the 1960's during "Cultural revolution"

Hitler should have been stopped and prosecuted for conspiracy and attempted genocide the moment he took office, but nobody cared to actually read his book, maybe then they would have understood sooner...

This is of course bit fantasy (and fugue) on my part but if one cares for a honest opinion strictly by the book then this is how it should have went.

 

[artis]

I just watched a somewhat weird but good documentary made by DW about Russia, I can personally relate to this video as I have been interacting with Russians in my life and although they all are different because Russia is big and different regions differ in mentality there is this common problem for them about how they perceive strength, history, how their leaders perceive what is important and what can wait (well being of people VS army, government etc)
But I would suggest only watch it if you can see it fully, there is a story there that I believe is worth listening to.
I'd even go as far as to say that Putin is a skillful puppet master he has largely stayed in power because he has exploited that one weakness Russians have , see if you can spot it in the story of the mother and her army loving daughter, as well as the old lady talking about WW2 and God...

 

[wrobel]

If you grew up during the USSR

I think the present situation is much more harder

 

[StevieTNZ]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/po...ters-parliamentarians-military-and-spy-chiefs

Russia has “blacklisted” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, Cabinet ministers, parliamentarians from all political parties, the Governor-General, and military and spy chiefs.

The blacklisting of 130 New Zealand politicians and officials, which will ban those listed from entering Russia, was a retaliation against the Government’s “unprecedented sanctions”, was announced overnight by the Russian foreign ministry.

No surprises here.

 

[artis]

I think the present situation is much more harder

Well it depends on how you look at it, for someone growing up in the 40's and 50's where you had to burn your chair that you were sitting on to get some heat to survive after the war and food was a luxury item, that was definitely hard, like physically hard. My grandmother lost her feet fingers while giving food to soldiers in the forest, the winters were super cold, one mistake and say goodbye to a body part from frost.Now it's harder because there are many more variables and unknowns.
WW3 is not a if but when for me, I don't think it will happen now due to Ukraine but eventually in the future

 

[nsaspook]

This is not warfare with a military objective, this is barbarous criminal behavior that the world must respond to short of WW3. How can Ukraine settle differences with a Russian state that promotes and sanctions these sort of actions with lies and disinformation on a global level?

Spoiler

https://apnews.com/article/russia-u...ited-nations-ee2fa37bb0ace7b4714c084998765f65

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and other leaders accused Russia’s military of deliberately attacking the station. Russia, in turn, blamed Ukraine, saying it doesn’t use the kind of missile that hit the station — a contention experts dismissed.

The missiles were seen in the theater of combat Mar 31, 2022.

https://defence-blog.com/russian-tochka-u-ballistic-missiles-return-to-service-amid-ukraine-war/

The Russian military forces’ Tochka-U ( NATO reporting name is SS-21 Scarab-B) tactical ballistic missiles are operational again, according to open-source-intelligence analysts who scrutinize photos and videos on social media.

Belarus-based analyst released Wednesday video footage reportedly showing a column of Russian military vehicles with “V” marks, which was moving from Rechitsa towards Gomel along the M10 highway.

“There were at least 8 Tochka-U, several BTR-82a, about 9 KamAZ trucks, some of which are carrying Tochka-U missiles, communication vehicle and a crane,” the MotolkoHelp said in a Twitter post.Russian Armed Forces are reportedly using Tochka-U to strike targets in Ukraine.

https://apnews.com/hub/russia-ukraine

 

[Vanadium 50]

Is that a question for me ?

Sorry. For @bob012345

 

[Astronuc]

NPR interview with Artem Chapeye, a writer fighting in Ukrainian army, on his love story for his country, which he is defending.​

Chapeye reflects on being a pacifist who must fight for his country.

Artem Chapeye - "If you have to die, it's better to fight" on reflection of the execution of civilians in Bucha and other villages, and the attack on civilians at the railway station in Kramatorsk in eastern Ukraine.

 

[Astronuc]

Viktor Maruniak is among dozens of local officials or community leaders who have been abducted or arbitrarily arrested by Russian forces as they seized territory in Ukraine, especially in the east and the south. These disappearances are both an attempt to coerce cooperation and a targeted effort to silence and intimidate Ukrainians who may oppose or organize against a Russian occupation.

https://www.vox.com/23012456/ukraine-russia-war-disappearances-kidnappings

The United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine has documented about 109 cases of suspected detention or enforced disappearances among civilians since February 24, including 48 local officials. The UN and other human rights groups have confirmed disappearances among other members of civil society: volunteers, activists, journalists, religious leaders, protesters, and former military veterans. (Vox reached out to the Russian Embassy for comment, but did not receive a response.)

Anastasiia Moskvychova, who has been tracking disappearances for ZMINA, says they have confirmed more than 100 arbitrary detentions since February 24; about 50 people are still missing.

But Oleksandra Matviichuk, a Kyiv-based activist and head of the Center for Civil Liberties, said these numbers are only the “top of the iceberg.” Her group is tracking dozens more suspected cases of enforced disappearances, but they are still trying to corroborate evidence, a task that’s all the more difficult in Russian-occupied areas. Other times, family and friends of the suspected victims fear making that information public.

 

[Isopod]

Ain't that the truth. I was just talking about this with a non-western friend who scoffed at the bubble we westerners live in. We've allowed ourselves to believe that that capacity disappeared after WWII and would "never again" happen/be allowed to happen. But that's just our privilege of being in that bubble.

My grandfather was actually one of the only people I ever knew who truly believed that the events of WW2 would be repeated.

My grandfather was a fighter pilot in WW2 and he fought over the skies of Italy before being shot down, miraculously surviving, getting found & taken in by the Italian Resistance, then trying to escape Italy with a bunch of guys before getting caught, sent to a POW camp, escaped, captured and then sent to a much worse POW camp where he saw many war crimes were committed before he finally escaped from that one and walked across Italy & France before getting a boat back to England right at the very end of the war.

(My grandfather (left) with his Curtiss P40 Kittyhawk in Tunisia, shortly before he left for Italy)

Pretty much everyone in my family had a story to tell about WW1 & WW2 as people for generations fought & helped in both wars (there's a lot of military & medical peeps in my family ancestry, 2 of my g.grandfathers were also war captains who fought in the Somme). But my grandfather was NEVER convinced that the peace that ensured after WW2 would ended would last. In fact he was truly shocked that it lasted as long as it did and he was utterly convinced that he would see a WW3 in his lifetime. He didn't just whittle on about this kind of stuff with empty words either, he actually took precautions for WW3, such as learning 8 languages, including 4 different dialects of Russian (he said because although he didn't know how WW3 would start, if it did, he was sure that Russia would have something to do with it ) and he never gave up his veterans farm in Australia as he knew all too well that the people who starved the most in WW2 were the ones without land (in fact this was something that both he and one of my g.grandfathers both shared in common (a shared belief in the importance of farmland) and my grandfather was pretty gutted that I never got to have any land). The reason why he learned so many languages was also because after having had to escape from Nazi occupied Italy on foot, he knew the importance of knowing and being able to speak foriegn languages properly as such knowledge often made the life/death difference for many people fleeing back then (including some other relatives of mine who had Jewish ancestry and had to escape both Germany and then Russia on foot).

So my grandfather would've 100% agreed with you; he also thought that most people here were living in a bubble of privilege and had no real idea about what life could really be like for a lot of people in the world.

My grandfather died in 2016, but I'll never forget a lot of his stories, beliefs & advice. Unfortunately for me, I don't have any land, I'm rubbish at learning foriegn languages and when events like the ones in Ukraine began to first unfold, I felt like I was one of the only people I knew who was taking the situation that seriously (even then, I was talked out of doing a lot of self-protective measures like stocking up on foodstuffs).

I'm pretty much a nobody, but my general gut feeling on matters is that even if in the near future the events in Ukraine are somehow wrapped up/paused for a while, I feel that this will all be the precursor to something much, much worse in the future (a real WW3, occurring in the next 8 years or so).

 

[Isopod]

The beeb did an interview article today on the recently liberated Chernobyl nuclear plant:

Inside Chernobyl: "We stole Russian fuel to prevent catastrophe"​

FULL STORY: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61048256

 

[PeroK]

My grandfather was actually one of the only people I ever knew who truly believed that the events of WW2 would be repeated.

As far I as know, most people of my generation (born 1963) feared there would be nuclear war. It was discussed at school and on TV and at home. I am too young to really remember Vietnam, but there were no illusions until the 1990's that the world might ever become a peaceful place. Those illusions, in any case, were shattered on 9/11 and by the Iraq war.

I can't say why Russia has gone down the road it has and why the European leaders have been so blind to Putin's intentions. But, I doubt your grandfather was the only one who feared that peace in Europe would not last.

 

[artis]

I can't say why Russia has gone down the road it has

Gone down?
Hasn't Russia always been down that road?

 

[artis]

such as learning 8 languages including 4 different dialects of Russian

4 dialects of Russian? Wow that is definitely a bit of an overkill, I have yet to meet a Russian who would know all those dialects, but whenever you speak Russian still every Russian understand what your saying (also Ukrainian, Kazakh, Mongol, almost all Baltic people,Georgians most of Polish etc etc), especially if you use the censored part of their language (which is pretty vast)