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Navy Publication Claims LENR Fusion

  1. Mar 31, 2009 #1
    Here is the link to the Navy publication where they claim "evidence" of LENR--fusion at low activation energy input.

    http://www.newenergytimes.com/Library2/2008/2008BossTripleTracks.pdf [Broken]

    Edit: and see here news release of American Chemical Society presentation:
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0323110450.htm

    ====

    I would like to begin here a detailed analysis in this forum of the peer reviewed publication by the Navy. I would like to know the following:

    (1) Exactly what are the 'possible' hypothesis now on the table that explain how the Coulomb barrier was overcome to allow for any fusion to begin ?

    (2) The Navy explanation of the 3-pit patterns they show in Fig.1 is that Carbon-12 was split into three alpha ? Does this not mean Navy then suggests Carbon-12 isotope has preexisting within it three alpha ready to split ? Is this an accepted hypothesis for how nucleons arranged within nuclear shells for carbon-12 ?

    (3) What other explanations come to mind to explain the 3-pit pattern shown by Navy in Fig. 1 ? I think it good possibility each pit is a nucleon, either a P or N. So, why would my hypothesis be false ?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
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  3. Apr 1, 2009 #2

    vanesch

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    The result of this publication is indeed puzzling.
    Now, although I don't have any explanation for either the coulomb barrier or other, at least the nuclear reaction itself doesn't seem to be altered which would be stepping up the strangeness: there seem to be a few neutrons.

    This corresponds then with what I said earlier: if ever a significant amount of power is produced due to fusion this way, you'd get a *very significant* flux of fast neutrons, which would not only be very easy to detect, but which would be very dangerous to the experimenter if no adequate biological protection (like with a nuclear reactor) is put in place.
     
  4. Apr 1, 2009 #3
    Hi Vanesch,

    Thanks for the comments on this interesting experiment.

    Where is the "direct" evidence of nuetrons being released in this Navy experiment--do you see any in their Fig. 1 ? My read is that all neutrons produced released their energy when they hit the Carbon-12 ?? Do you see where in the paper they discuss otherwise ?? - I do not. I see no direct evidence of neutrons, only indirect.

    Also, from your knowledge of Carbon-12 isotope (or perhaps you know an expert)--does it make sense that the arrangement of N and P in the nuclear shells are preexisting as alpha ??

    Thus, a picture of Carbon-12 that must be true for the Navy explanation to make sense is this:

    Carbon-12 = [NNPP]+[NNPP]+[NNPP}, that is, three alpha preexisting that when hit by neutrons via some sort of fusion reaction (which Navy does not understand) then are released and form the 3-pit pattern in Fig.1 of the paper.

    I think the Navy may well have evidence that some sort of fusion reaction did result to form all the patterns in Fig. 1 (especially the 3-pit pattern)---but I question that they have the correct explanation that Carbon-12 was involved.
     
  5. Apr 8, 2009 #4

    vanesch

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    I didn't study the paper in detail, but using plastics to detect neutrons IS a known detection technique. So I suppose - I only suppose - that they know what they do when they analyse such detection signals, and that they know the typical backgrounds and false signals. I'm not an expert in this kind of neutron detection technique, but I know it exists.

    So if someone with enough expertise tells me that he has seen a clear signal of fast neutrons way over background, and that he did a detailled analysis of what it could be and that the only explanation is that it were neutrons, then I guess I have to take his word for it.

    The C12 (n,alpha) reaction is a well-known reaction of which you can find the cross section here for instance:
    http://www.nndc.bnl.gov/sigma/getPlot.jsp?evalid=4219&mf=3&mt=107&nsub=10



    I think the Navy may well have evidence that some sort of fusion reaction did result to form all the patterns in Fig. 1 (especially the 3-pit pattern)---but I question that they have the correct explanation that Carbon-12 was involved.[/QUOTE]

    The reaction is known since long:
    http://jpsj.ipap.jp/link?JPSJ/14/869/ [Broken]

    So I take it that these people understand their detector. If not, well, it is very difficult from the outside to judge a specific experiment.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  6. Apr 8, 2009 #5
    Vanesch,

    Here is also a Navy 2007 paper that gives more information about their cold fusion CR-39 research:

    http://www.newenergytimes.com/Library/2007BossP-UseOfCR39.pdf [Broken]
    =======

    Thanks for the information in your previous post--it is interesting that you present experimental evidence that complex isotopes like carbon-12 can have preexisting within nuclear shells types of nucleon clusters--in this case three alpha. So in a picture, we can think of 6 carbon-12 isotope has a quantum possibility = [NPNP]+[NPNP]+[NPNP]. This is predicted by the Alpha Cluster model and other cluster models of the atomic nucleus. Then the Navy experimental results of 3-pit pattern on CR-39 film released during LENR fusion event at the Pd electrode could be these three alpha released from carbon-12 after carbon hit by high energy [N] neutron from DD type fusion reaction. This is in fact what Navy published report has claimed as hypothesis to explain 3-pit pattern, I do believe.

    Here again is Navy recent 2008 publication where this claim in made:

    http://www.newenergytimes.com/Library2/2008/2008BossTripleTracks.pdf [Broken]

    However..........

    Seems to me using Occum's Razor that the most simple explanation as to how the 3-pit pattern result in the Navy experiment is that each single 'pit' seen on CR-39 film is caused by a single nucleon, either a proton [P] or a neutron [N] that results from a fusion reaction of some sort at the Pd electrode.

    So, suppose the 1-pit pattern is caused by a single nucleon such as a neutron [N] or proton [P] from a DD fusion, then the 2-pit pattern could result from two nucleons close packed and each hits CR-39 film at similar time and location, and then the 3- pit pattern could be caused by three close packed nucleons released together (either tritium [NPN] or helium-3 [PNP]). That is, if isotope carbon-12 can be explained as being a quantum possibility of 3 alpha cluster [NNPP], why not helium-3 also be explained as a single [PNP] cluster quantum possibility ?

    ====
    Edit: Here is one published report of evidence that helium-3 [PNP] can exist as a three body cluster:

    Document title:
    Evidence for higher nodal band states with 3He cluster structure in 19Ne and prerainbows in 3He+160 scattering
    Author(s):
    OHKUBO S. ; HIRABAYASHI Y. ;
    Abstract:
    The existence of a higher nodal band state with a 3He cluster structure, i.e., a vibrational mode in which the intercluster relative motion is excited in 19Ne in addition to those with the a cluster structure in 20Ne and the 160 cluster structure in 32S, is suggested, which reinforces the importance of the concept of 3He clustering in nuclei. This conclusion was reached by investigating 3He scattering from 160 in a wide range of incident energies and prerainbow oscillations.

    Physical Review C. Nuclear physics
    Source / Source
    2008, vol. 77, no4

    ===

    Given that tritium [NPN] is very unstable and that helium-3 [PNP] is very stable, it seems most likely, if above hypothesis is correct, that the 3-pit pattern seen by Navy could result from a helium-3 [PNP] type cluster hitting CR-39 with the three nucleons in close packing when released at start of DD process. If a good hypothesis one would predict to find different stages of breaking apart when a [PNP] hits CR-39, perhaps with middle [N] as center of mass with two [P] at each side, so one might predict to see a 3-pit pattern with evidence of the 3 nucleons as [PNP] appearing to split from a center point. And this is exactly what Navy reports in the 2007 published report given above that they see with microscope for 3-pit tracks on CR-39, and suggested in the 2008 paper using their 3-alpha from carbon-12 explanation.

    My hypothesis (that the 3-pit pattern = [PNP] = helium-3), if allowed by laws of physics during DD fusion, trumps the more convoluted Navy explanation using Occum's Razor. My point being is that the Navy explanation for the 3-pit pattern is just so convoluted--that a DD fusion event released a neutron--that the high energy neutron hit the CR-39 film--that just happened to catch a carbon-12 atom in a quantum state with 3 perfectly matched alphas--that the three alphas released at the same time to hit CR-39. So, why not just DD fusion at Pd electrode resulting in release of helium-3 [PNP] to explain how the 3-pit patterns are formed--three individual nucleons close packed that hit CR-39 at same time, each pit caused by a single nucleon ? Where in either 2007 or 2008 papers would my hypothesis be experimentally falsified in a robust manner ?

    Comments by anyone greatly appreciated--I just want to better understand all of the possible explanations of how the 3-pit pattern could be formed on the CR-39 in this Navy experiment before I accept the "carbon-12 split into 3 alpha hypothesis" given by Navy.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  7. Apr 10, 2009 #6
    Comment on my posts above:

    After further investigation, it has been made clear to me that it is very unlikely that the 3-pit pattern observed by Navy could be from break-up of a tritium and/or helium 3 isotope. There is just not enough energy predicted, plus no good way to explain break-up of tritium or helium-3 into individual nucleons, plus even so, impact pits would not be at diameter reported in Navy experiment.

    So, it does appear that Navy has evidence of high energy nuetrons (in range 9-15 MeV) being released from their deuterium loaded Pd electrode that hit carbon-12 found within the CR-39 media that caused the carbon-12 within CR-39 to be split into 3 alpha--thus forming the 3-pit pattern they report.

    The major importance of this Navy experiment is the claim that a cold fusion devise has released a neutron in 9-15 MeV range. So, a new line of cold fusion experimentation now open for anyone having interest in this field of study.
     
  8. Apr 11, 2009 #7

    Vanadium 50

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    This topic is confusing enough, without people injecting personal theories into the mix.

    It might also be worth it for the mods to link all the diverse threads into one.
     
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